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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 22 May 2025
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Displaying 1923 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”

Meeting date: 23 November 2023

Graham Simpson

I will try to keep the conversation going, as always, convener.

In my questions over the past couple of weeks, I have been exploring gaps in the system as it relates to the police. I am sure that this is the same for our colleagues in Wales, but the police tell us that they spend the majority of their time—up to 80 per cent—dealing with people with mental health problems rather than with crime. They are called out to people with mental health problems; that is what they are doing for up to 80 per cent of the time.

There should be no such thing as out of hours when we are talking about mental health, but there is. The services of some of the people who are in this meeting shut down at certain times, and perhaps that is part of the problem. Whole squads of police are sat in hospital accident and emergency departments with people, waiting for them to be seen.

I have heard that, in Lanarkshire, which the convener and I represent, police officers have spent entire shifts sat in hospitals with people. The police have had to introduce what I think is an informal system with NHS Lanarkshire that means that, if they have to do that, they pick up the phone and say, “Look, can you help us out and start moving people through the system?” Does anyone have a better system for working with the police?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”

Meeting date: 23 November 2023

Graham Simpson

Is anyone aware of anything similar elsewhere in Scotland?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”

Meeting date: 23 November 2023

Graham Simpson

That is fascinating. It is obvious that we have a bit of a patchwork of systems in Scotland. Some places are apparently doing very well, while others are doing less well. The committee would love to hear more details of the schemes that have been described to us. If the witnesses could send us more information, that would be good.

Have any of the people here today had a look at the model that is referred to in the report that operates in Trieste in Italy? Essentially, it is a 24-hours-a-day, seven-days-a-week service to which people can go. There is no waiting list, so people can just turn up. One of the side benefits is that it has saved money, but it has also led to a better service for the people who need it. Have any of you had a look at that model? If so, what do you think of it? I will pick on Hannah Axon.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”

Meeting date: 23 November 2023

Graham Simpson

That is honest of you, Richmond. It sounds as though you recognise everything that the Auditor General is saying. There is data in one part of the system, and data in another part, but nobody is collecting it. It is probably your job to collect it, is it not?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”

Meeting date: 23 November 2023

Graham Simpson

That is good, because hospitals in Lothian deal with that on the ground.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”

Meeting date: 23 November 2023

Graham Simpson

We have set up integration joint boards, but sometimes it does not sound as if they very integrated.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”

Meeting date: 23 November 2023

Graham Simpson

Good. I think that you all need to go and see Richmond Davies and get your acts together.

Hannah Axon wanted to come in. I think that you will then want to move on, convener.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”

Meeting date: 23 November 2023

Graham Simpson

Are you getting resistance from anyone?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”

Meeting date: 16 November 2023

Graham Simpson

Oh, do they?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Adult mental health”

Meeting date: 16 November 2023

Graham Simpson

We could spend ages on that subject, but I will move on.

I want to chat to Derek Frew about the police’s involvement in mental health cases, because that has been a big concern of mine for a while now, having spoken to police in my patch. Both the convener and I represent Central Scotland, which includes Lanarkshire. When I speak to the police there—I think that, nationwide, other police say the same—they tell me that the amount of time that officers spend dealing with mental health cases can be very great. The figure that I was given locally was that 80 per cent of cases involve mental health issues, which I found astonishing.

I have also heard locally that there have been incidents where entire shifts of officers have had to sit with people in accident and emergency and so have been unable to deal with other cases. That seems to me to be a ludicrous situation and not a good use of resources. I ask you to comment on that initially, then we will move on.