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Seòmar agus comataidhean

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 1 May 2025
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Displaying 1857 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

“Sustainable transport: Reducing car use”

Meeting date: 26 February 2025

Graham Simpson

I agree with you on that. Quite a few of the projects that Sustrans has delivered have been good, in my view. The south city way in Glasgow is a good project, although its delivery was shambolic at times, and it took far too long. Overall, however, it has been a good project. We cannot just say that some of those things are not good. There is evidence that people are using the south city way, certainly locally, and there is less car use, because people now have a viable alternative to get from one part of the city into the city centre on a segregated route. For me, that has worked.

Perhaps this is a question for you, Mr Bell. We are now moving to a new system of funding, where money will go directly to councils. How do you think that will work? One of the issues that you will be very familiar with in relation to some councils is lack of capacity. That is probably the case in rural councils in particular. You mentioned rural areas earlier. How do you think it will all work?

Public Audit Committee

“Sustainable transport: Reducing car use”

Meeting date: 26 February 2025

Graham Simpson

I am hearing some audio feedback, which Mr Bell got as well. I wonder whether that can be sorted.

I did not see anything in the consultation that was launched this week that said that the Government is dropping its target—did you?

Public Audit Committee

“Sustainable transport: Reducing car use”

Meeting date: 26 February 2025

Graham Simpson

Okay. I am not sure whether you agree with me there. I just think that the Government ought to be honest about it and say, “We’re never going to achieve this,” and either drop the target or change it.

Public Audit Committee

“Sustainable transport: Reducing car use”

Meeting date: 26 February 2025

Graham Simpson

Okay; that is fine. That delivery plan—you could call it a route map; it is the same thing—has not appeared yet. You are saying that the Government needs to publish that. I do not think that it will. If the Government has dropped the target, it will not publish a route map to hit a target that it will not achieve. We will wait and see. If the Government were to publish such a plan, what level of detail needs to be in it?

Public Audit Committee

“Sustainable transport: Reducing car use”

Meeting date: 26 February 2025

Graham Simpson

I want to move on to the section about active travel funding. Transport Scotland recorded active travel funding as having been spent, but it was held in a delivery partner’s accounts. Transport Scotland did not check any documentary evidence that the £82.5 million had been spent on projects before authorising payments. That is pretty extraordinary, is it not?

Public Audit Committee

“Sustainable transport: Reducing car use”

Meeting date: 26 February 2025

Graham Simpson

Would you say that Transport Scotland lost control, and that it should have had a greater grip on the money that it was handing out?

Public Audit Committee

“Sustainable transport: Reducing car use”

Meeting date: 26 February 2025

Graham Simpson

There is a new model of funding whereby money will go directly to councils, rather than through Sustrans, and I am wondering how you think some councils will cope with that.

Public Audit Committee

“Sustainable transport: Reducing car use”

Meeting date: 26 February 2025

Graham Simpson

Where do you think that the target came from? Where do you think that we got the figure of 20 per cent from?

Public Audit Committee

“Sustainable transport: Reducing car use”

Meeting date: 26 February 2025

Graham Simpson

My conclusion from that answer is that the 20 per cent is just a made-up figure. As the Auditor General said, it could have been anything—it could have been 10 per cent, 15 per cent or even 30 per cent. It does not seem to be based on anything, and certainly not on anything realistic.

Public Audit Committee

“Sustainable transport: Reducing car use”

Meeting date: 26 February 2025

Graham Simpson

Absolutely. It is really stretching.

I will quote from paragraph 14 of your report, but I will convert the figures from kilometres to miles. I was disappointed that, in your report, you fell into the Scottish Government trap of using kilometres and not miles. If I were to ask you how far it is from Edinburgh to Glasgow, you would not give me the distance in kilometres. Just bear with me—I am going to use real money.

The report says:

“To achieve the target, car traffic levels will need to decrease by”

4.5 billion miles to 18 billion miles

“compared to a 2019 baseline. The last time car traffic levels were at this level was in 1994.”

You also say:

“Transport Scotland estimates that to achieve a 20 per cent reduction in car”

miles

“by 2030, public transport capacity would need to increase by 222 per cent.”

None of that is achievable and it never was. Based on that, and based on the lack of a plan, do you think that the Government should just be honest and say that it has ditched the target?