The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.
All Official Reports of meetings in the Debating Chamber of the Scottish Parliament.
All Official Reports of public meetings of committees.
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Social Justice and Social Security Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 13 November 2025
Bob Doris
Agenda item 2 is our fourth evidence session on the Wellbeing and Sustainable Development (Scotland) Bill, which is a member’s bill that has been introduced by Sarah Boyack, who will give evidence to the committee at next week’s meeting. I welcome Richard Lochhead, the Minister for Business and Employment, and Scottish Government officials Iain Stewart, who is team leader in the strategy division, and Kirsten Simonnet-Lefevre, who is a solicitor. Thank you for joining us.
Minister, I do not know whether you were given advance notice, but you would be welcome to make some opening remarks.
Social Justice and Social Security Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 13 November 2025
Bob Doris
I will follow up on a couple of points about potential overlap.
I think that it was last week when we heard a wee bit from someone from the Children and Young People’s Commissioner Scotland who was concerned about overlap and how some of the proposed new commissioner’s responsibilities could duplicate those of the children’s commissioner.
It has also been suggested, partly by myself, that other public bodies and offices out there are actively doing some of the work that we are discussing. I went on to my phone to check on Environmental Standards Scotland’s goals as an example, and it says that it promotes national sustainability goals by investigating non-compliance in the environmental field.
Is it possible for a new commissioner to be created and have what we might call a protocol so that overlap and duplication do not happen, or does the situation simply mean that there is no need for a new commissioner?
Social Justice and Social Security Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 13 November 2025
Bob Doris
Mr Torrance’s question gets to the heart of a lot of this. If the national performance framework and the national outcomes are reformed in a way that means that they can be used to scrutinise public bodies effectively to ensure that they are meeting their obligations, that would be very welcome. The committee would welcome hearing a bit more detail—if not this morning, at a later point—about how the Scottish Government is seeking to do that. There is quite a strong argument that that could work well, but, in the absence of information on how the reform process is going, the committee is left with a bit of a gap in respect of how we can take an informed view on that. Perhaps you could provide us with that detail, either this morning or by coming back to the committee in writing.
Social Justice and Social Security Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 13 November 2025
Bob Doris
I come to Sarah Boyack—thank you for your patience, Sarah. You have listened to the committee members asking questions, so there is a bit of time for you to ask some questions if you wish.
Social Justice and Social Security Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 13 November 2025
Bob Doris
Seeing as it is you, Ms Boyack, you can ask one more question.
Social Justice and Social Security Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 13 November 2025
Bob Doris
The good news is that Sarah Boyack will get to swap seats with the minister next week, when we will take oral evidence from her on the Wellbeing and Sustainable Development (Scotland) Bill.
I thank the minister and his officials for attending the meeting to help us scrutinise the bill.
09:47 Meeting continued in private until 10:46.Social Justice and Social Security Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 13 November 2025
Bob Doris
Good morning, and welcome to the 29th meeting in 2025 of the Social Justice and Social Security Committee. We have received apologies from Collette Stevenson. David Torrance is substituting for her; thank you for joining us, David. I also welcome Sarah Boyack to the meeting. I hope that Michael Marra will join us later.
Under agenda item 1, we must decide whether to take item 3 in private. Do members agree to do so?
Members indicated agreement.
Social Justice and Social Security Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 13 November 2025
Bob Doris
My only follow-up would be that, irrespective of what the Government thinks or what the committee recommends, we need to know whether there would be a fix for that issue if the bill were to pass. Is there a fix that would ensure that public bodies and the proposed commissioner could co-exist without there being a messy overlap?
Social Justice and Social Security Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 13 November 2025
Bob Doris
My apologies to anyone who is watching this session who is not a bit geekish in this field, as it all sounds a bit abstract. It would be helpful if the Government could give us any examples of where the NPF and the outcomes are being scrutinised—even imperfectly—and public bodies are, to a degree, being held to account or encouraged to improve their standards in that regard, rather than talking in the abstract.
Social Justice and Social Security Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 13 November 2025
Bob Doris
That is helpful. I know that members will refer to the national performance framework in the questions that they will ask shortly. I have written down that there are other ways to address the gap that has been referred to, rather than primary legislation. However, the committee has received evidence that obligations on sustainable development
“must be fulfilled before and at the time when a particular policy is being considered or decision taken”.
How can we ensure that that happens without legislation?