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That is helpful. Just to put it on the record, the cabinet secretary said in the previous evidence session that she would write to the committee to let us know what will be additionally spent on mitigating UK benefit changes. There is a gap between block grant adjustments and Barnett consequentials and overall social security spend, so I look forward to receiving that data. We need to ensure that we collect that data in an independent, consistent and user-friendly way every year to allow the committee to identify trends and, as you say, work out what is possible in relation to social security in the real world, but that is wandering on to Finance and Public Administration Committee territory.

As always with these lines of questions, Dr Witcher, there may be something that you wanted to say but have been unable to because we have taken you off on a tangent. I want to give you that opportunity. Unless colleagues have any further questions, I will give you the final word. Over to you, Dr Witcher.

I am not a referee but, if the cabinet secretary wants to respond to Katy Clark’s comment, I ask her to do so briefly as there was a substantive question before that.

I have a couple of questions—I said at the start that I would come back in if there was time. My question is about the relationship between devolved and reserved benefits. The expectations on the Scottish social security system can sometimes be more complex than we realise. There is an expectation that the system will mitigate the worst aspects of the UK system, so 455,000 households in Scotland get a council tax reduction that they would not get elsewhere in the UK and £83 million has been spent to ensure that households do not suffer the bedroom tax and to mitigate, where possible, the benefits cap. We are spending directly on reserved matters.

We are also proactively progressive. I am thinking about the £450 million—or whatever the figure is—that is spent on the Scottish child payment. Dr Witcher, you said something interesting about policy overspill. I apologise if “generous” is the wrong word but, if we are more generous and have different rules—for example for Scottish disability assistance—and more people qualify for a passported benefit, there are cost implications that could effectively become a bill that is chargeable back to the Scottish Government under the terms of the fiscal framework.

As a committee, and as a nation, we do not always understand the financial underpinnings of that. My concern is that it is difficult to see, in one place, what the Scottish Government spends on mitigating Westminster policies, what it spends on other areas that are new to Scotland and the cost implications of policy overspill and passporting.

Do you have any reflections on that? I have used a jumble of words that might sound quite complicated. How can we boil that down to a user-friendly and easy-to-understand analysis of the numbers and do that consistently every year so that this committee, SCOSS and others can look at that and make an informed decision about what to do next with the Scottish social security system? We are very ambitious, but we must have the money to pay for that.

I apologise to you, Dr Witcher, as I suspect that you would like to see more than one change. I also apologise for cutting across you.

We have identified on a cross-party basis that you have absolute expertise combined with lived experience and a fiercely independent voice, and it is difficult to find individuals with all three attributes rolled into one. The committee would appreciate keeping some form of relationship with you going. Thank you very much for your time, and we will keep in contact.

That ends the formal part of the meeting, and we move into private session.

That was short and sweet.

Agenda item 2 is an evidence-taking session on the Scottish Employment Injuries Advisory Council Bill. This member’s bill, which was introduced by Mark Griffin MSP on 8 June 2023, is currently undergoing stage 1 scrutiny. We have already heard from four panels of witnesses, and next week we will hear from Mark Griffin, the member in charge of the bill.

I welcome to the meeting Shirley-Anne Somerville, Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, and from the Scottish Government, Kirsten Simonnet-Lefevre, solicitor, and Risga Summers, policy manager. You are all very welcome, and thank you for joining us to aid our scrutiny.

Cabinet secretary, I believe that you have a short opening statement to make before we move to questions.

Thanks very much.

I apologise, convener. I feel as though I am nudging back slightly. I want to ask a little more about Ms Christensen’s aspirations to have an additional target or an additional part of the circular economy strategy, so I would like to turn to her in the first instance.

Ms Christensen, you have a very clear ask of the legislation, which does not always happen—quite often we hear about matters in general terms. It is to ensure

“the highest standards of environmental and human rights due diligence in Scottish supply chains”

and public procurement. I could not possibly disagree with any of that wording, but if it were to appear in the bill it would be reasonable to ask who should determine what a just supply chain looks like and how that would be monitored. I am interested in how we could monitor that and measure compliance with it.

That is a helpful answer, although it could be considered aspirational. That is not a criticism; I might be sympathetic to what you are suggesting.

As for reporting on the strategy every five years, the Government would be criticised if it had a strategy and did not measure its progress against it. Would you expect it to take reasonable steps or appropriate measures to meet those goals? Would it have to have regard to the variety of international frameworks that are out there? Could you put a wee bit more meat on the bones on that?

Just in case I do not get back in for a follow-up question, convener, may I sneak in a second point? Ms Christensen, I know that that is a big ask. I am not asking you to flesh out the whole approach, but perhaps you could give us an idea of what it might look like. Would it extend simply to the Scottish Government and its agencies on procurement, or would you like to see reporting and due diligence done in the whole of corporate Scotland?