Seòmar agus comataidhean

Good morning, minister and Mr Wilson.

I will support the Government’s moves, although not with any great enthusiasm, based on a precautionary approach to legislation. A number of constituents have contacted me to make representations—not only XL bully dog owners but concerned members of the public, so I have seen both sides of the debate.

It is clear that dog and animal welfare groups and expert groups all withdrew from the DEFRA working group that was pursuing a ban in England, due to concerns over the poor quality and rushed nature of the legislation from the UK Government. The UK legislation is clearly far from perfect—in fact, to call it “imperfect” would be a compliment. The Scottish legislation will, therefore, have very similar issues.

It might be that weak legislation is better than no legislation, based on the precautionary principle that I mentioned. However, I have a constituent who has two XL bully-type dogs. They are a responsible owner, I am sure, and through no fault of their own they have to move home. That owner will face a situation in which they will struggle, not because they have an XL bully type dog, but because social landlords do not like taking dogs into tenancies, and nor do some private landlords. Therefore, they might face an invidious choice somewhere down the line as to whether to euthanise their two dogs in order to prioritise a home.

My understanding is that the statutory instrument does not provide an exemption for my constituent, which is concerning. However, there is a further statutory instrument coming down the line, in which exemptions will be looked at again. Is that aspect something that the Scottish Government can and will look at?

I want to push you a bit more, minister, on where flexibility and discretion could be used and whether that could be described as a loophole, because those are two different things. If we define legislation tightly and do it well, it is not a loophole—-it is providing appropriate flexibility and discretion.

For example, if somebody has a private tenancy in Scotland—I am talking about Scotland-based examples—and the landlord wishes to take possession of that home to stay in it themselves, and the tenant becomes homeless through no fault of their own, that is all clearly evidence based. That would not be a loophole; a very clear element of flexibility could be shown in that regard.

I know that we cannot legislate for individual cases, but we should at least be looking to legislate along different themes. I do not think that, if we legislated for housing situations that would arise in England, that would in any way create a loophole for people bringing dogs from England to Scotland. I do not understand that.

I want to know a little bit more about how the Government will work with representatives of owners of large dog breeds, such as the experts at Bedlay Gardens, which Mr Wilson mentioned. It was mentioned that the implementation group includes COSLA, Police Scotland, the National Dog Warden Association and others, but I am not sure that representatives of large dog breed owners were mentioned. I think that, rather than just engaging with them, having them at the table would be a worthwhile endeavour. What does the minister think about that?

I was keeping my head down, convener. I was not sure whether I was permitted to comment at this stage, as I am not a member of the committee.

I want to reiterate some of the views that committee members have expressed. First, I commend committee members on their interrogation of the statutory instrument—it has been a worthwhile exercise and is how scrutiny should take place. Christine Grahame will not thank me for this, because she will think that it is patronising—although it is not—but I commend her on her forensic endeavours in relation to the issue. If I was her, I would not be happy with the likely outcome of the vote this morning.

In my contribution earlier, I said that, however we frame it, passing the statutory instrument may make our communities a wee bit safer. It is not where I want to be or where the committee or Parliament want to be, but not to act would be wrong. As I said, passing this legislation is better than not passing any legislation. However, the real task relates to the next statutory instrument—when I may not be so kind to my Government—and to the details in relation to that, as well as to further work. We must have early sight of the Government’s thoughts on future work and reform in the area.

Thank you for allowing me to make those points, convener.

I have a final question. It is clear that there has been on-going dialogue with DEFRA about wider reform in relation to dog control in Scotland and also about a potential pan-UK approach to that. Have representatives of large dog breed owners been engaged in any of those discussions? When I and Mr MacGregor met Bedlay Gardens, the minister and Mr Wilson, Bedlay Gardens was really up for reform of the system in Scotland. It really wants to engage and be challenged, and it wants to innovate and transform the system in Scotland. Its expertise is surely crucial in taking forward some much-needed reforms.

I suppose that it is a financial question, Mr McBride. I take the view that at the point of transition, when a positive outcome is reached, there should be cash from the United Kingdom Home Office and the UK Government to support that transition. The UK Home Office has taken a very different view. That said, though, it is everyone’s responsibility—the UK Government’s, the Scottish Government’s and all Scottish local authorities’, not just Glasgow’s—to get together and do the best they can. If there was more money, could you use that money to find a solution? What would that solution look like in the short term? What conversations are on-going about funding?

I think that the committee would welcome a note on that.

Finally, Mr McBride, when I was speaking to people from Mears, I put it to them that we should be talking about permanent accommodation from day 1 of an asylum seeker family moving to the city. That means providing permanent accommodation, perhaps in Glasgow or in one of the other 31 local authorities across Scotland, and doing constructive work with them. Mears told me that it is not allowed to do that work. Is that a missed opportunity? Is that something that we have to do more of?

Can I push you slightly further on that, Mr Smith? I am not trying to box clever here. There will undoubtedly be an impact, and that impact will not be beneficial in the slightest. I get that. Is the impact that you are talking about a revenue budget impact as opposed to an impact of the capital cut? I am trying to get at what the short-term impact is likely to be of the capital cut. Once you have answered that, I will bring in Mr MacRae, because I imagine that Shelter Scotland will have strong views on the issue.

I asked Mr Smith whether there is a cut to the capital budget in the coming financial year. Mr Smith has perhaps cited consequences for less revenue support, and those are two different budget streams, I understand. I genuinely just want Mr Smith to put on the record what the short-term impact is likely to be of the cut to the Scottish budget in capital terms rather than revenue terms. If I have misunderstood Mr Smith, I apologise.

Mr Smith, do you want to add anything before Mr MacRae comes in?

Thank you.

Yes. I thought that it was quite an important point to make, convener.