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Any positive approach is possible. I suspect that HES’s imagination has been tempered by the current legal set-up for its operating model. From 2024-25, it will have some flexibility in that, which might open the Pandora’s box of imagination about how we can use all the assets.

I hear you on the diaspora and the Hanseatic league and the links that we have with other nations. You also mentioned China. Our new Scottish connections framework is a great vehicle for using some of the examples that you just spoke about, raising the market profile and using all the iconic backdrops that HES has for revenue raising, sponsorship and fundraising. That might involve clans coming back and taking some responsibility for funding and supporting cultural heritage to which they are connected.

There is a rich seam in that suggestion that can certainly be mined. I intend to do that. We need to settle the issue of the operating model to allow us to be as adventurous and imaginative as possible. I am keen to do that as well. An action for me from this meeting will be to sit down with the Scottish connections team and consider how we can use the work that it is doing on the diaspora to do that with some of the iconic and perhaps not-so-iconic places.

You asked about a complete audit, Mr Brown. I will have to go back and check on that. I think that HES audits all the time. I think that it keeps track of sites all the time, but perhaps the audit that you are thinking about—you can correct me if I am wrong—is about looking at opportunities for fresh ways to use them. You are nodding, so I will take that away as an action.

It has nothing to do with last week’s committee meeting, but Alex Paterson has decided to move on and there is an opportunity for a new chief executive officer to come in. Fresh leadership and a fresh pair of eyes, might, together with the new operating model, provide an opportunity to use some of the ideas that are around to realise “Our Past, Our Future” in all the wonderful assets that we have.

I put on record my thanks to Alex Paterson for the work that he has done, because, through very difficult circumstances over the past few years, he has managed to keep the organisation moving. However, change always presents opportunities and those opportunities should be positive.

We are working on that information as we speak. On 13 November, Historic Environment Scotland engaged a new programme management team, which includes a data analyst, whose job is to look at all those issues and at how the skills gaps emerge for Historic Environment Scotland.

The other piece of work that you are looking for is within the skills sector. Rather than trying to pull out of the back of my head what Mr Dey is doing about that, I will endeavour to get that information and send it on to the committee.

For our purposes and the purpose of the strategy, we recognise that traditional skills gaps exist and that we need those traditional skills to be built into what we do. There are 2 million stone-built structures in Scotland, which means that, in the next few years, particularly with the acceleration of climate change, we will need more people with those skills areas to protect, repair and improve our structures. There is currently no training provision in Scotland for repair and maintenance skills in those key areas, which is one of the issues that Mr Dey and I discussed yesterday. We discussed how we create the circumstances in which we can create training for those skills. That will involve a shared apprenticeship model and continuous professional development for people who are already qualified in those areas. We are looking closely at all that.

The new data analyst for HES started his work on 13 November. We will give him until the new year, and then we will start to ask him about what analysis he is pulling out and what that is telling him. That data will then inform our next steps. We are well aware that there is an issue there, which HES is starting to address with the new engagement that I mentioned.

That is an excellent question, which leads on from my response to the earlier questions about the new model that HES is developing.

Officials from the Scottish Government, as the sponsorship body, are working with HES on that and supporting it to do that. They are in the throes of redeveloping that business model as we speak, and they want to ensure that it delivers a high-quality, sustainable and equitable service for the people of Scotland. Sustainability now becomes even more important, particularly in this financial environment, where everyone is feeling it tough when it comes to budget.

The Built Environment Forum Scotland has created a sustainable investment toolkit, which any of our heritage organisations can use. That was created as a result of the predecessor strategy, “Our Place in Time”. That toolkit has been designed to assess societal and economic opportunities and the environmental potential of our built heritage.

As I explained earlier, the way in which HES is set up creates some challenges. If it raises additional revenue, that has an impact on the grant that it gets from Government. That is the legal framework, which is a result of how it was set up.

As I said, we are working closely with and supporting HES in this work. It is looking at income forecasts and how income can be increased, without the impact on its grant aid from the Scottish Government, which can be a disincentive. Therefore, I am not surprised that HES was not that forthcoming, because the current business model does not allow it to take full advantage of those opportunities. We are working with HES and finance and exchequer colleagues to look at ways to create flexibilities. In a very tough financial environment, opportunities for revenue raising become very important, particularly for sustainability but also for investment in those assets and the ability for HES to hold reserves. Those things are all in play in that work.

HES is also leading the way on public sector and public services reform, particularly as a public body in that landscape. Therefore, we are looking at ways in which it can become an exemplar for other public bodies. We are looking at new, innovative and flexible ways in which it can raise more revenue and raise its profile and the understanding of some of the amazing heritage that we have and how it can invest that revenue back into the work that it is doing, particularly on preserving, sustaining and maintaining cultural assets for the future.

That is not a term that I have ever used or one that I have heard since I came into the job in March. I have heard it spoken about, but not by people who manage the sites.

There is a lot of positivity. There are challenges, but there are also many opportunities. It is about how we use those opportunities to give people a sense of their place in their own communities and to put Scotland on the international stage.

In my opening remarks, I mentioned how Scotland is viewed. Everybody knows Edinburgh castle, Stirling castle and the Wallace monument—the iconic places—but some people do not know what is on their own doorstep. Working with local people is important for that.

I do not hear that there should be managed decline. The attitude is very positive, and there are opportunities to raise awareness of what is happening on all the sites and to use them as exemplars.

Tantallon castle is a tangible example of that. When I was there, we talked about repairs that had been done in the past and the methods that were used to make those repairs, which involved quite a rough-looking cement. The sandstone around the cement had degraded and worn away, and big chunks of cement were sticking out. That was being looked at. That did not seem to me to be managed decline; it seemed to be about securing the site for the future and using it to the best of our abilities.

The engagement of a data analyst on 13 November is the answer to your question. There was recognition that there is lots of data, but there are issues about how it ties together and can be used to focus resources, time and energy, or to show that there is a gap that needs to be filled. HES will monitor that and report to the Government and to the committee: you have the role of being a monitoring body, and you do it very well.

Another issue is who is included and how we create inclusive environments. One aspect of that is about making physical assets accessible. You will have noticed that all the websites and all the plans and updates that we have published are available in easy read, Gaelic and other formats in order to increase inclusion. That is perhaps where some of the data gaps exist, in as much as it is easy to see a physical barrier, but it is not easy to see the non-physical barriers and to know how to tackle them.

I put a lot of stock in the new person who is doing the data analysis. When I was equalities minister, I would have been unable to move forward with many actions that I took without underpinning data and knowing what it told us about where the gaps were and how to resolve them. I look forward to hearing the first update from that person, but we should let him get his feet under the table, as he has only been there a few weeks.

I am sure that it did not.

Yes—I think all of that. I have seen community asset transfer used very effectively right across the whole of Scotland, mainly for community assets, but local community groups with some expertise can look after the historic assets in their communities. A properties in care review is happening right now, so extensive work has been done on that aspect. I suppose that HES would say that, if it took more properties into its care, it would mean more responsibility, including financial responsibility; in tight circumstances, that is a difficult thing to do. Again, that is why the review of the operating model becomes more important, because if we can raise more revenue and therefore more investment, it becomes more straightforward to take more properties into care and look after them. Some properties in care are in a perilous state and that is why HES has come in. It is about maintaining and sustaining those properties.

However, there is much more that we can do about community engagement. We have talked about volunteering and how that becomes important. There are lots of places in which communities can be engaged in all this, through community development trusts and historical development trusts, for example. The issue that I raised at the very beginning of the session about participation is important in relation to that too.

One of the issues that we are grappling with right now is in relation to churches. Many churches in small towns, particularly in rural areas, are the cultural heritage of those towns. HES has now engaged a member of staff who is working closely with the Church of Scotland on the challenges that it has and the proposals to dispose some of its historical buildings. An example of that—again, I will take you back to my own constituency—is the Trinity church on Larkhall Main Street, which is an amazing building with an amazing historic stained glass window. The window was removed a few years ago because the stone around it started to degrade and they were worried. There is now a consultation with the community in that area about taking over ownership of that and maintaining it, both as a historic monument and as a community asset. Therefore, it may not be about more properties coming into the care of HES but about sharing the expertise so that communities can look after what is on their doorstep.

That is about looking at how we can do more local community engagement. We will pick up that issue in the culture values summit. How do we engage communities more with what is on their doorstep? How do we get them involved and how do we get them fired up about what is there?

We hear from communities when they find out that an asset is to be closed. That has happened over the past couple of years. There was a bit of an earthquake in Larkhall when the Trinity church went on the list and people said, “We’re not having that”, so we know that we can really engage people, and not just in an emotional way, but in a really committed way. I want to develop work with HES and other cultural organisations to consider how we can do more of that. I think that you are absolutely right.

Schools have a huge role to play in how we educate young people about what is in their local communities. My lifelong interest in empire and slavery, for instance, is because of a primary school visit to the David Livingstone birthplace when I was about 10 years old. I have never lost that interest and now have the honour of taking it forward in the Government. Such things can spark something in a 10-year-old that becomes a lifelong passion; we need to create opportunities that ensure that that happens.

We have lots of wonderful young people and older people engaged in their local community. There are many ways in which we can do that. If you have ideas on how we could do it, particularly in rural settings, please share them. My mind, ears and heart are open to any opportunities that you think we are missing.

You will not be surprised to hear me say that the current budget round is incredibly tough. However, putting that aside for a second, in 2023-24, the operational budget for HES has risen by 18 per cent to £114.5 million, which shows a level of commitment. The budget for high-level masonry issues has risen dramatically, too. Again, there is a recognition that we need to invest for all of our futures.

We are coming into a new budget round. The draft budget will be published on 19 December, and I am sure that the committee, among many others, will take the opportunity to have its say on that, and I encourage you to do so.

You made a point about sponsorship. There is a bit of work to be done on that. I know that the committee has asked questions about the issue over the past few weeks and has been thinking about how we can maximise income. Interestingly, HES has suggested that it has made a very strong recovery from Covid, which is good to hear, because it has been hard for many people to recover from Covid. The amount of revenue that it is raising is coming up to previous levels again.

There is one challenge that comes from the way in which HES was set up, because if its revenue goes above a certain amount, that has an impact on the money that it gets from the Government. HES is working on a new plan and a new model for how it does its business. We are looking at ways in which we can build in some flexibility so that it can do more with revenue raising and sponsorship. Various issues can arise from that, but HES has very positive relationships around the world. The “Scottish Connections Framework” is a perfect example of how we can use the number of people who believe that they have Scottish roots—it is 40 million, 50 million or 60 million, depending on who you speak to—and therefore have a connection with Scotland. There are many ways in which we can use that network, but some of that depends on the new business model. We are working with HES on how we can build in flexibility to allow those things to take place.

You mentioned volunteering, which ties into the point that I made to the deputy convener about local communities. Sometimes, local communities are the best custodians of what is on their doorstep, although some communities might not be too sure about what is on their doorstep. When local communities are involved in looking after their local heritage assets, they become the best custodians. We want to encourage and further develop that by working with HES and others to create such opportunities, not just for folk who have a bit of time on their hands but for young people and older people, so that the places are made accessible for all groups, including disability groups.

The number of events that take place in Chatelherault country park, in my constituency, is absolutely unbelievable. Believe it or not, there was a serious issue with badger baiting, but, after we engaged all the primary schools on badger watch, the badger baiting stopped. When communities engage in looking after not just buildings but the land and landscape around them, they become the best guardians of it. We want to encourage much more of that.

Thank you, convener, and please pass on my best wishes to both Mark and Clare.

Thank you for inviting me to give evidence to the committee. As the “Our Past, Our Future” strategy makes clear, our historic environment is a national asset that is intrinsically linked to our sense of self and national identity. It is of great importance to Scotland. I know from the many questions that I have had from members over the past few weeks that there is a warm place in everyone’s heart for the lovely attractions and assets that they have in their constituencies. The strategy acknowledges just how unique and diverse Scotland’s historic environment sector is. Our historic environment is of international significance, designated through our world heritage sites and iconic heritage attractions that are instantly recognisable and eternally memorable.

It is important to reflect back on Scotland’s first historic environment strategy, “Our Place in Time: The Historic Environment Strategy for Scotland”, which was published in 2014. “Our Place in Time” has had a positive impact on the awareness and perceptions of the priorities within and outside the historic environment sector. The strategy provides a framework around which Historic Environment Scotland and other stakeholders have aligned strategic planning and developed other strategies. However, we can all recognise that, since it was published, a lot has changed, with the sector facing fresh challenges and opportunities.

“Our Past, Our Future” focuses on priorities that have been identified through extensive consultation with the historic environment and cross-cutting sectors, as well as communities across Scotland. You will not be surprised to hear from me, as a former equalities minister, that participation is a key element of all that work. It is telling that those key priorities—sourced from active engagement with the sector—align with the Scottish Government’s national goals and targets, which include delivering net zero, building a wellbeing economy and creating more resilient, inclusive and sustainable communities and places.

I turn now to the challenges. We all recognise the challenges around climate change, the shortage of traditional skills and the current economic climate. The need to address skills shortages in the historic environment sector has become even more important and pressing. We are all too aware of the high-level masonry issues that we have been facing as a result of worsening climate change, and we need traditional skills to maintain and retrofit our traditional buildings if we are to achieve our net zero targets and maintain our building stock for the future. A lot of good work is being undertaken in that area, including on the make your mark volunteering campaign and at the Ridge in Dunbar.

To ensure that Scotland’s built heritage is sustainable and promotes wellbeing, we will continue to engage with the sector to understand the ways in which we can support actions on our national targets.

The Scottish Government continues to recognise the important contribution that the heritage sector makes to our economy and our wellbeing. Therefore, against the challenges of the financial backdrop, we will continue to provide funding to the sector through our sponsorship of Historic Environment Scotland to support those key areas.

Collaboration—how we work together on the whole agenda—is a key part of the work that I want to do and the work that was done in the past. It is important that we work together to create opportunities to sustain and enhance the benefits that our nation’s heritage creates and ensure that the historic environment is at the centre of our national life. My recent work with the convener of the wellbeing board of the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities is an example of that collaboration.

We must communicate better the significance of our historic environment and the contribution that the sector makes to the economy and the wellbeing of Scotland’s people. The strategy was created by everyone for everyone and we all have our part to play in its delivery. The “Our Past, Our Future” strategy does not exist in isolation. It fits within the context of a number of other Scottish Government strategies, such as the programme for government, the national planning framework 4 and the culture strategy. However, we can do more to mainstream “Our Past, Our Future” across other areas of Government, and we will. I have taken that up as a personal action.

It is important that the challenges and opportunities around delivering “Our Past, Our Future” are all considered. That is why I am pleased to be here for the open discussion and any questions.