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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 18 December 2025
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Displaying 567 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee (Draft)

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 29 October 2025

Jamie Hepburn

I have a final and straightforward question that is based on the Victim Support Scotland response to the Prisons and Young Offenders Institutions (Scotland) Amendment Rules 2025. On the basis of what you have already said, cabinet secretary, I think that your answer will be a yes, but I would like to get that on record. VSS is seeking an assurance that any deputy governor with delegated powers would, when making a determination, have access to the same information that a governor would see.

Criminal Justice Committee (Draft)

Prostitution (Offences and Support) (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 29 October 2025

Jamie Hepburn

However, that is not on the table here—we are not considering that as part of the list of propositions.

Criminal Justice Committee (Draft)

Prostitution (Offences and Support) (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 29 October 2025

Jamie Hepburn

I appreciate that. Ruth Breslin has pre-empted my question—

Criminal Justice Committee (Draft)

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 29 October 2025

Jamie Hepburn

Cabinet secretary, you have spoken about the impact of the current situation—you described a transactional relationship between staff and those who are being held in our prison estate.

I was struck by a pretty stark comment in the policy note on the impact of the current situation on

“SPS’ ability to provide a safe environment for those living and working in Scottish prisons.”

The note then goes on to talk about

“a decline in the acceptable working conditions for staff within prisons.”

Can you say a bit more about the impact of the current situation on staff safety and how the regulations might alleviate concerns?

Criminal Justice Committee (Draft)

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 29 October 2025

Jamie Hepburn

I support the regulations, and I think that the committee should support them because the circumstances that have been set out require us to act.

It is interesting that the deputy convener conceded at the outset that we are in an emergency situation, and an emergency situation compels us to respond urgently. I am afraid to say that the deputy convener’s response to the cabinet secretary did not indicate what would otherwise constitute an urgent and emergency response. It would be very easy to pass on by and abdicate any responsibility for trying to find a solution. With respect, I would say that that would be a knee-jerk response. It is clear that the regulations have not been proposed lightly. People will be watching.

It is important to remind ourselves that there are clear restrictions on the cohort of prisoners that will be eligible for early release—that is set out very clearly. Life prisoners will not be eligible. Untried prisoners will not be eligible. Terrorist prisoners will not be eligible. Those who are subject to proceedings under the Extradition Act 2003 will not be eligible. Those who are subject to notification requirements under the Sexual Offences Act 2003 will not be eligible. Those who are serving a sentence of imprisonment or detention for an offence that is aggravated as described in the Abusive Behaviour and Sexual Harm (Scotland) Act 2016 are not eligible. There are others—I could go on.

That is not to dismiss the reasons why those who will be eligible have been imprisoned. I recognise that the courts have made that assessment and determination, and I do not dismiss that lightly, but we must remind ourselves that there are prisoners who will not be eligible.

The governor’s veto will also be extended to deputy governors. They can make a further assessment, and those who might otherwise be eligible could be vetoed.

The most compelling reason that I have heard thus far is the impact on the prison environment and on being able to undertake the rehabilitation of prisoners, which I know is sometimes dismissed as not important. As far as I am concerned, it is an essential part of the work that is undertaken in prisons, because, if it is done properly, it creates a safer society. However, for no other reason than that we have heard that overcrowding has an impact on the safety of those who work in the prison environment, we should support the regulations today.

Criminal Justice Committee (Draft)

Prostitution (Offences and Support) (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 29 October 2025

Jamie Hepburn

That is helpful. Ruth, you talked about that exact experience.

Criminal Justice Committee (Draft)

Prostitution (Offences and Support) (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 29 October 2025

Jamie Hepburn

Thank you very much for your evidence thus far. I have a few questions—I flag that early. If you can assist me by not testing the patience of the convener in working through them, that would be—

Criminal Justice Committee (Draft)

Prostitution (Offences and Support) (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 29 October 2025

Jamie Hepburn

I am putting words in your mouth, so you can tell me if I am wrong, but the conclusion that you are drawing is that changing the law to criminalise the purchase of sex does not alter the dynamic.

12:45  

Criminal Justice Committee (Draft)

Prostitution (Offences and Support) (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 29 October 2025

Jamie Hepburn

What is the Irish experience, Ruth?

Criminal Justice Committee (Draft)

Prostitution (Offences and Support) (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 29 October 2025

Jamie Hepburn

It is maybe too early to conclude, but is the bigger challenge societal and attitudinal? Cultural change would reduce demand more than the law per se.