The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.
All Official Reports of meetings in the Debating Chamber of the Scottish Parliament.
All Official Reports of public meetings of committees.
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Public Audit Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 11 June 2025
Colin Beattie
Is that not a red flag?
Public Audit Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 11 June 2025
Colin Beattie
I want to come back to the leading to change programme. Are you confident that it will address the challenges that have been highlighted? Could you give a bit more detail on that and its ancillary project?
Public Audit Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 11 June 2025
Colin Beattie
Auditor General, for quite a lot of years now, we have had concerns about the quality of leadership across the public sector, with, of course, specific concerns quite often arising about the national health service.
I note that your report lays out some issues with regard to recruitment. That is not a new thing; indeed, as far back as 2019, our predecessor committee called on the Scottish Government to take urgent action to address the leadership challenges across the public sector.
There are a number of issues in that respect. The previous committee looked at the apparent insufficiency of people putting themselves forward for, say, chief executive posts and so on, and at a round-table meeting that was held, there was a feeling was that there was a problem with the environment that some of these people were expected to be promoted into as chief executives and that that was a deterrent in itself. I do not know whether that was a valid statement; it simply came up at the round-table session.
Has that situation improved? Are there more people coming up who have the skills and ability—and, indeed, the willingness—to take on chief executive posts?
Public Audit Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 11 June 2025
Colin Beattie
Given that this is a bit of an anomaly, what is the situation like in the rest of the UK? Are the issues similar? Is turnover of senior staff similar?
Public Audit Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 11 June 2025
Colin Beattie
You mentioned stability, which is tremendously important. Given the number of movements that we are seeing, is it not inevitable that some instability will feed into the system, given that so many people have taken up their posts over such a short time? Surely it will be difficult to provide continuity.
Public Audit Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 11 June 2025
Colin Beattie
You mentioned all the changes that the NHS needs to drive through. Are you satisfied that internal recruitment will achieve that? Although there are benefits to internal recruitment, we want there to be competition so that we get the best people into post. Are we losing out from the point of view of cross-pollination in getting the skills that we need?
Public Audit Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 11 June 2025
Colin Beattie
Given that significant turnover in senior management, has there been any analysis of the reasons for their departure? Is it simply coincidence—that is, a lot of them are retiring at once—or is it rather more difficult to evaluate?
Public Audit Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 11 June 2025
Colin Beattie
If you are recruiting internally, having a pipeline of skilled people coming up the line is absolutely essential. The previous committee commented that there was a relatively small number of people in that pipeline and that, among that small number of people, there was an even smaller number of people who were interested in taking on chief executive posts. Has that situation changed?
Public Audit Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 4 June 2025
Colin Beattie
If the subsidiary was audited separately, would Audit Scotland have sight of the audit reports? Would you scrutinise them in the interests of looking at the health of the group?
Public Audit Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 4 June 2025
Colin Beattie
From what you have said, the college has not really given an adequate reason why, given the knowledge that it had, it did not do anything.