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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 16 May 2025
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Displaying 2443 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Major Information and Communications Technology Projects (Accountability and Governance)

Meeting date: 31 March 2022

Colin Beattie

In view of the time, I will pass back to the convener.

Public Audit Committee

Major Information and Communications Technology Projects (Accountability and Governance)

Meeting date: 31 March 2022

Colin Beattie

I will build on what the convener has been talking about. Over the past 11 years on the committee, I have seen a whole progression of ICT projects that have failed, or that have failed to deliver what was expected. In some cases, they were abandoned.

We have had responsible officers and accountable officers in front of us. We have heard assurances that there was an acceptance that accountable officers did not necessarily have the skills to manage those projects, and that, within the organisations, there was a lack of end-user understanding of how to interface with the technical experts who were building the programme. Again and again, that has created unwarranted optimism, followed by dismay, when what is delivered does not comply with what was sought.

Over a period of years, the response was for layers of management to be thrown in centrally. At one point, it was bewildering to try and understand which layer did what. I am assuming from what you are saying that that has now resolved itself somewhat, but I do not understand where the change is. We still have the accountable officers being accountable for the projects. The idea was that a central capacity would be created to provide those officers with support to help them identify providers and to help them, as end-users, to gain the skills that were necessary to ensure that the projects delivered what they were supposed to deliver.

We received all those assurances, but I am not clear from what you are saying whether they have actually been delivered. I would be interested to get a little more information on that.

Public Audit Committee

“Drug and alcohol services: An update”

Meeting date: 31 March 2022

Colin Beattie

We certainly hope that the situation will look a bit better.

Public Audit Committee

Major Information and Communications Technology Projects (Accountability and Governance)

Meeting date: 31 March 2022

Colin Beattie

If we look back at previous ICT projects that have failed, we can see that it is almost invariably the case that those are projects in which an NDPB has been involved. That has been the picture historically. How do you provide NDPBs with support? How do you ensure that they do not just go off on their own and create rubbish, which, in some cases, has happened in the past?

Public Audit Committee

“Drug and alcohol services: An update”

Meeting date: 31 March 2022

Colin Beattie

Before Antony comes in, I want to put another question to you. Given the complexity and diversity of the stakeholders that are involved, is it inevitable that funding will be fragmented? How could that situation be improved? It is not good that funding arrangements are “complex and fragmented” when you are trying to put together a strategy. Does the system have to change?

Public Audit Committee

Major Information and Communications Technology Projects (Accountability and Governance)

Meeting date: 31 March 2022

Colin Beattie

Earlier, you said that you were expecting technical expertise to reside within the different areas, and the accountable officer would be able to access that expertise internally within his area.

Again and again, what has come to light is that there is not enough technical expertise in the market—there is a huge shortage. Scotland is not alone in that regard. The last estimate that I saw, which was several years ago, was a shortage of 300,000 of such people across Europe. That is a big number and those who are available are demanding salaries that are way above the normal scales. At one point, they were being paid off scale to try to get them in.

Is it realistic to expect that each area will be able to recruit, at some considerable expense, that sort of skill to enable them to build a system? Would it not make more sense for the skills to be available centrally to give that support in a rather more cohesive way?

Public Audit Committee

“Drug and alcohol services: An update”

Meeting date: 31 March 2022

Colin Beattie

I will move on to a slightly different topic. I am sorry—Jillian, do you want to come in?

Public Audit Committee

Major Information and Communications Technology Projects (Accountability and Governance)

Meeting date: 31 March 2022

Colin Beattie

Although the NHS and Police Scotland have their own digital people, they have still had IT projects that failed because they did not have the skills to manage the contract. Even contract negotiation has been an issue in some cases. How are we providing them with support in such things? From what I understand from what has been said, the individual accountable officers within the areas in which those projects fall would still have the final say in how the project is managed. Do you have the authority to overrule them if you feel that they are going adrift?

Public Audit Committee

Major Information and Communications Technology Projects (Accountability and Governance)

Meeting date: 31 March 2022

Colin Beattie

Most of the projects that we have seen fail have failed not because they were delivering something that the public did not want but because they eventually delivered something that the department or division concerned did not expect, and it was a case of a difference of interpretation between the end users and the techies building the system. It is vital that there is an understanding between the two, yet, again and again, what is being delivered is less than or different from what was expected and unable to be used for one reason or another. Given all that, I would have expected stronger central support.

You have talked about contracts, but surely each individual accountable officer does not have to be trained in the intricacies of a contract to build new software. Is that not the sort of thing that could be centralised, with experts going through contracts and ensuring that all the safeguards are in place? We have seen systems built that had no safeguards at all—there were no penalties on delivery and all sorts of basic things. Is that not the sort of thing that could be usefully and helpfully centralised?

Economy and Fair Work Committee

Town Centres and Retail

Meeting date: 30 March 2022

Colin Beattie

My second question was whether you could point to any successful examples elsewhere, particularly south of the border or in Europe.