Seòmar agus comataidhean

I was just trying to bring things to life a little with an example of how we can have differences.

I think that a framework approach would lead to gaps in our ability to make decisions. With regard to getting into the granularity of some aspects, I am happy to carry on our conversations with Universities Scotland to see whether we can come to more agreement on the matter than we currently have, as we clearly do not have agreement right now. Nonetheless, it is very important that we have the ability to take quick decisions and to enforce them. As we do that, we would, of course, work with institutions to ensure that nothing inappropriate was being done. To give one example, animal welfare measures would have to be taken into account if we were to move forward with regulations.

However, it would be difficult if we were to get into a particular position. I will give the committee an example. If we, as a Government, received public health advice that suggested that a term or semester should start later, and an institution said, “No—we think everyone should come back now, and we should have in-person learning”, we would need the ability to say, “No, I am sorry—the public health advice is that that is inappropriate.”

A framework would not get us through that. We can have a framework to enable us to talk about the issues and to try to work in partnership. However, when push comes to shove, if an institution said, “No, we think in-person learning is the way forward” and tried to move forward with that at a far greater pace than Government would be at all comfortable with, given the public health advice, I do not think, with the greatest respect to Universities Scotland, that what it is proposing at this point would allow any Government to deal with that situation.

I have made it clear that I am more than happy to carry on discussions with Universities Scotland about the granular detail of some of the issues that it is concerned about, to see whether we can alleviate some of those concerns. However, it must also recognise where I am coming from. I do not think that we have had an answer from the university sector on what we would do if an institution just said no.

We do not believe that it will have any impact on that act.

We are cognisant of the evidence that has been given, and I will be more than happy to provide further details to the committee. Clearly, the situation will have to be looked at, given what the commissioner said and because of the concerns that have been raised. I am not at a point at which I can respond to that now but the Government will be keen to look into the concerns that have been raised.

It is about attempting to future proof the legislation, which is always quite difficult. Of the officials who are on the screen, Nico McKenzie-Juetten might be the best person to reassure you about some of the niceties. If he is not, he will direct me to someone else.

They were quite right to point out the importance of consultation. Clearly, the Government would want to carry out as much consultation as possible before we made regulations, and I completely appreciate that universities would want to consult if powers lay directly with them. However, the point about the speed of decision making is key. We live in an imperfect world during a pandemic, and we must endeavour to ensure that the speed at which we can make decisions allows us to deal with that pandemic.

Our work with universities continues, particularly as we move out of the current stage of the pandemic. Their ability to work at a more local level with staff representatives and students on how to deal with the current phase and future phases of the pandemic is to be commended. However, as I said, we are not in a perfect world at the point of decision making. That was particularly the case in the early days of the pandemic.

The bill allows us to deal with a public health emergency. I have dealt with the issue of whether it is necessary and whether it is within our human rights obligations. With the greatest respect, we are really getting down into the detail of the bill. Mr Mundell and I must continue to disagree on various education policy issues, but we have the opportunity to ensure that, as a Parliament, we all rise to the occasion and pass a bill that will allow us to pass legislation that any of us could be in government to put into practice. There is an obligation on all of us to ensure that the bill is the best that it can be.

Of course, we take very seriously the discussions with stakeholders, what was in the consultation and, importantly, what is said in evidence to the committee. I have listened carefully and paid close attention to what has been said, particularly on the issues that you raise.

I will make a couple of points on human rights, because it is an exceptionally important issue. It is integral that the Government fulfils its obligations on human rights. I believe that some of the arguments that have been made proceed on the premise that the United Kingdom has somehow suspended, or derogated from, some of its obligations under the ECHR. That premise is inaccurate. There has been no derogation from the ECHR in the context of the coronavirus. It is important that I make that clear.

We will ensure, as we always do with bills that go through Parliament, that we are content with the bill. The Presiding Officer has made a statement to say that, in her view, the bill’s provisions would be within the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament. That, of course, covers the requirements on human rights.

Any regulations that were made under the legislation, once enacted and its provisions commenced, would have to be compatible with the ECHR. The Scottish Government would have to consider the potential impact of any measures that were included in regulations on the range of convention rights. Any interference with a right under the ECHR would have to be justified in accordance with the Scottish ministers’ human rights obligations. We consider those obligations very carefully.

We will, of course, continue to listen to stakeholders that have concerns about such issues. However, from what I have seen at this time, I am not concerned that there is an issue with the bill and its ability to pass successfully through Parliament and become an act.

Clearly, we listen very carefully to the commissioner’s opinion on any issue. As I said to Mr Marra, the implications of aspects relating to children and young people in the justice system are clearly concerning. Although we pay attention to everything that the commissioner says, urgent discussion is required on how we deal with children and young people in the justice system.

—of it taking days to get regulations through Parliament, and by then—