Seòmar agus comataidhean

I referenced the NIF because you have rightly said in the past that we have focused on some measures but not mentioned others.Therefore, I would point to the numbers that are in the NIF and where we would want to see those.

Will we get to a point where it is utterly eliminated, where I look at what has happened in the NIF and there is zero on all those measures? In reality, in an education system, I think that it would be exceptionally difficult, if not impossible, to get to the point of zero. However, we are looking to substantially eliminate that gap and get it down as close to zero as possible. That may vary from measure to measure, because they are measuring very different aspects.

If you will forgive me, I will not be drawn on what that number is, but I think that there are 11 old measures in the NIF, and we have included some more, so the number will vary from measure to measure. However, we are now seeing progress and recovery. We are not at the point of substantial elimination but, for example, if the stretch aims for primary schools were delivered and progress continued—that is an “if”, because stretch aims are supposed to be exceptionally challenging—there would be a substantial elimination of the poverty-related attainment gap in primary schools by 2026. I hope that that gives an example of a trajectory for that happening in primary schools, but I appreciate that the trajectory in other areas is more challenging.

I point to the section at the end of my introductory remarks. If Mr Kerr is suggesting that we have not increased the budget by enough, he should please feel free to suggest how much it should be increased by and where that money should come from. We are in difficult financial circumstances and, within Government, we have seen a real recognition of that and of our ability to increase the colleges budget. If you do not feel that it is sufficient, Mr Kerr, I would be more than happy to know how much you think it should increase by—

—as you always are. I will certainly ensure that Mr Hepburn keeps the committee updated on the collection of data as we move forward.

Despite the way that it is often portrayed, a great deal of success is happening in Scottish education. When we look at the number of qualifications received at the last results day, we see near-record highs, and the number of young people going to positive destinations when they leave school is also at a near-record high. I think that it would be a grave misinterpretation to say that there is not success within the education system, because the number of young people who are going to positive destinations suggests that there is.

Again, I would push back on the suggestion that the OECD said that Scottish education is in crisis, because that is not what its report said, and that is not what the International Council of Education Advisors said, either.

There is a lot to commend in Scottish education. One of the aspects that came from the international council when I discussed the matter with it was that we should look to reform but that we should also look at continuous improvement. That means looking at how we challenge ourselves to learn the lessons of what happened during Covid and at how we challenge ourselves to move to the next level. It does not mean getting to a point at which we are in a reform process that throws out what already happens in Scottish education. A lot of good happens in education.

I do not accept the premise of the question that the reform process was built in because we were in crisis, because I do not recognise that in the recommendations of the OECD or in the work from the international council. They did say that we can improve, but I do not think that there is any education system in Europe or elsewhere that should not challenge itself to improve. That is what the reform process is about. Scottish education is in good shape—as the information on exam results and positive destinations shows—but are there ways that we can improve our system? Of course, there are. That is why the reform process was brought in.

There are a number of areas in which Colleges Scotland has made proposals for the financial year that we are in and moving forward. Between the Government and the SFC, which allocates the expenditure, we are looking to ensure that there are increased flexibilities around the budget, such as not being as direct about how the budgets are spent to the same proportion. It is about how colleges can get a little bit of flexibility. That is not in relation to the entire budget but around a pretty substantial proportion of it.

I genuinely think that Colleges Scotland and the Government have been working well together to look at the flexibilities. We are very open to that. Mr Hepburn and I have had a number of conversations with Colleges Scotland, and officials frequently have similar conversations, as does the SFC. It is one of those areas in which we can assist colleges and give them the flexibility to deliver in a really tight financial situation. I do not think that there is any difference of opinion between the Government, the SFC and Colleges Scotland about the need for that, and we are all keen to move forward with that.

Indeed, and that is exactly why the discussions that we have will vary from institution to institution. Although you understandably point to the difference from the rest of the UK, there is also great variation within Scotland.

You have mentioned the work on international students that is already happening with the university sector—those discussions are happening at all levels of Government to ensure that everybody is aware of and is sharing information about risks and that institutions are cognisant of them. Because they are independent of Government, the Government cannot insist on changes—nor should we—but I think that everybody in Government and in the institutions is very live to the points that you have made.

Colleges have an exceptionally important role in our vision for our economy. One of the Government’s priorities is the move to net zero, and colleges will play an exceptionally important part in that. The on-going work on purpose and principles sets out where we want to develop a shared understanding and vision for Scotland’s tertiary education sector, including colleges.

In summary, my expectation of the college sector is one that can deliver for the needs of our economy and society. Those needs will change over time as our economy and society change, and our college sector will have to change and respond to those needs and demands. The sector has shown that it is exceptionally flexible, that it works well with local employers and that it looks forward to identify what future skills are needed to ensure that it can deliver on that.

For brevity, I will leave it there.

Given that it is a multiyear fund, we have a multiyear evaluation strategy. You are right to point out that the fund will have some short-term effects but that some effects will take time to come to fruition. We are looking at more frequent publications as part of the refreshed SAC and at what in-year evaluation we can do instead of retrospectively evaluating what has already happened. That would assist with how the money is being spent instead of our waiting until the money has been spent and then evaluating. That is quite difficult, because certain aspects are quite intensive, particularly for some of the projects, and it can take time to see the effects, as you will appreciate from your experience in schools.

The other important aspect is the headteacher survey, which asks whether headteachers feel that a difference is being made. We have seen very positive feedback from those who have replied to that survey in the past. The survey gives us as good a guide as possible—from those who take part in it—on whether headteachers feel that the money is making a difference on attainment or wider health and wellbeing issues. That is another important part of the process of checking in regularly, although we are fully aware that turning things around will take some time, given that, as Audit Scotland and the International Council of Education Advisers recognise, the issue is exceptionally complex.

Forgive me, but I am not sure whether Mr Marra thinks that we should give them more money or less.