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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 22 October 2025
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Displaying 1141 contributions

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Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 31 October 2024

Shirley-Anne Somerville

I would certainly be happy to provide further information in writing to the committee about how quickly changes to social security systems can be made. That is clearly an issue that all such systems have, so I will refer to it in writing if that is convenient, deputy convener.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 31 October 2024

Shirley-Anne Somerville

No. To be absolutely clear, had we been able to go forward with a universal benefit, Social Security Scotland was ready to do so. There were no issues at our end with taking that forward.

Our taking on delivery next year will give us more time to adapt the system, and I am confident that the system will be changed in enough time to allow the agency to deliver it next year.

Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 31 October 2024

Shirley-Anne Somerville

An important part of the consultation was enabling people to respond on different types of payment, now and in the future. There were differing views on that.

The options that were then available to the Scottish Government when we got the information through were much narrower. We had built a system based on universality, which was the system that we would have been able to deliver. However, if we were unable to deliver it, it would have to be something that the DWP could do under an agency agreement. At that point, we had available to us a much narrower field of practical options.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Human Rights (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 8 October 2024

Shirley-Anne Somerville

With the greatest respect, convener, I would push back on that again. We cannot discuss the right to housing—which I give as an example—without considering what would not be within scope. The human rights bill is limited in scope because of the Supreme Court judgment. I want to change that, because that would increase what is in scope on housing, for example. It is because we want to strengthen the bill that we want to go further on some aspects. I am acutely aware of the limitations on what the Government can do on the human rights bill, and I want it to go further. I hope that Ms Gallacher does, too.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Human Rights (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 8 October 2024

Shirley-Anne Somerville

Sure. There are two areas in particular where we can make demonstrable progress over the next 18 months. One is capability-building activities; the other is the tracker tool. The work that people wanted us to do on the tracker was outlined in SNAP 2. It would, in effect, monitor and support the implementation of human rights recommendations from the international treaty bodies. We have worked together with international partners to understand what already exists and how that might need to be adapted—or not—for Scotland-specific circumstances.

I am very keen to see what can be done on the tracker tool quickly, to look at what we can learn from those who already use it and to see whether stakeholders would be content for us to move forward quite rapidly on that measure.

Things are made slightly more difficult, if I can put it that way, because we are not a signatory to treaties. However, we need to get past any practical difficulties. I hope that our very different relations with the UK Government might help us to make progress on that.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Human Rights (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 8 October 2024

Shirley-Anne Somerville

You are quite right to demonstrate how that tool could be used. I will bring in Kavita Chetty to respond on some of the practicalities that we are already looking at.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Human Rights (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 8 October 2024

Shirley-Anne Somerville

In my response to the deputy convener, I tried to deal with the criticism about being blindsided. As I said in my opening remarks—I will reiterate this once again—I absolutely understand people’s deep frustration and anger. I have a job of work to do to build trust and to show that my decision to delay the bill was made because there is an opportunity to make the bill stronger, which did not exist during the other years in which I have been involved in this work.

Forgive me—I am not trying to make a political point about that. It is simply the case that there has been a change in approach. That meant that I was left in a position over the summer in which we could have decided to go forward with the bill, as we had intended to do, but I know, in my heart of hearts, that if we had done that, it would not have been as strong as it could have been.

I appreciate that, last week, the committee heard evidence that suggested that we could introduce the bill and simultaneously make it better. I hope that we will have time to go into why I genuinely do not see that as a realistic and practical option. I am happy to go into further details on that later, if that would help the committee.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Human Rights (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 8 October 2024

Shirley-Anne Somerville

There is a great deal that we can still do in this area. I reiterate that we are absolutely committed to the incorporation of UN treaties into Scots law, and that we are absolutely committed to delivering the human rights bill. Therefore, we need to keep up the momentum on the delivery of what we can do in the meantime. There are areas of the bill in relation to which we can still test and refine proposals.

We are very conscious of the fact that it would help if civic society could see how far things have developed. We are not asking civic society to go through the consultation that it has already gone through or to repeat the process that it has been through. I fully appreciate that people have fought for many years for what was going to be in the bill and that they are tired. They have spent a lot of their time and capacity on that, and they do not want to waste time.

Therefore, I am very conscious that we need to move forward with specific proposals that we can implement in the next 18 months. Key to that is our relationship with the UK Government and how we can demonstrate that. Those are the areas that I am keen to work on. We need to use the next 18 months to demonstrate that, together, we have made progress and that we can use those 18 months to make further progress. I hope that, for the first time, a conversation can take place between the Scottish Government, the UK Government and stakeholders about how things can develop.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Human Rights (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 8 October 2024

Shirley-Anne Somerville

Professor McHarg’s work in this area is exceptionally important, and I point to some of the difficulties that she raised in her remarks. Her work is absolutely being taken into account, and it is one of the areas that will help form the basis of the event that I have mentioned, at which we are keen to ensure that we work with stakeholders to discuss the limitations that the Supreme Court judgment places on the scope and on how that work can be taken forward.

That work has been examined. Other alternatives, proposals and solutions might come forward, but we need to have that discussion at pace so that we can work with the UK Government on a solution that both Governments are keen to take forward.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Human Rights (Scotland) Bill

Meeting date: 8 October 2024

Shirley-Anne Somerville

I have listened with great interest to the proposals and suggestions on that, and I completely appreciate why they were made. This Government is determined to carry on its work with the human rights bill, and we are keen to work closely with civic society and public bodies on that.

We need to look at refreshing the governance arrangements, as those were set up with the intention of introducing a bill. The bill is not being introduced to the same timeframe; we also want to strengthen it further. Therefore, we need to look at the issues of specific interest that we want to work on and at how we can have a governance structure that enables an eye to be kept on what can be done in the next 18 month and is not just about what is in the bill.

I encourage everyone who is interested and remains, as I am, fundamentally committed to delivering the human rights bill to carry on that discussion with the Government. I feel that frustration, and I have heard about it directly. We can still do a great deal to move things forward in the next 18 months, and I am absolutely committed to leading that work on behalf of the Government.