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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 14 February 2026
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Displaying 1184 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2026-27

Meeting date: 16 September 2025

Shirley-Anne Somerville

It was initially a Jeremy Balfour amendment, but then it was a Scottish Government amendment. We will have to check the record to see how that vote went. We were already required by statute—the 2018 act—to increase certain benefits, but Parliament voted to extend that universally.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2026-27

Meeting date: 16 September 2025

Shirley-Anne Somerville

Yes.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2026-27

Meeting date: 16 September 2025

Shirley-Anne Somerville

Again, we would separate the £36 million from what currently happens with the benefits. Ian Davidson could furnish the committee with further details about the current discussions with the DWP. The type of information that we need is, for example, the benefit on which an overpayment has been made. That will assist us in our approach to tackling that. Until we get that information, it is quite challenging to hypothecate that money—to say where it will go.

I hope that it is useful for the committee to point to the work that we currently do. The agency already undertakes that type of work to enable it to deal with overpayments in instances of both error and fraud, which are treated differently, as I hope that the committee agrees that they should be. We will continue to do that work, which, in essence, provides a guide to the types of work that could then be done to recover some of the £36 million. To be clear, the DWP would not have recovered the full £36 million in any scenario, because there are different success rates for recovery across various cases.

We need information about the £36 million. What we do to recover the money will be based on the agency’s work. David Wallace can go into further detail about how we do that for different benefits, if it would help to provide the committee with examples. We take those issues very seriously, but cases are dealt with differently depending on the individual context.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2026-27

Meeting date: 16 September 2025

Shirley-Anne Somerville

As I say, part of the challenge around that figure, which David Wallace mentioned, is that many of those cases will still be in train. We would start off with the initial approaches to recover that money, and if it is not possible to do so, the case can move through the process. David might want to provide some further information on that.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2026-27

Meeting date: 16 September 2025

Shirley-Anne Somerville

I will always challenge the agency—as the agency will challenge itself—to improve those numbers.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2026-27

Meeting date: 16 September 2025

Shirley-Anne Somerville

I alluded to some of that work in my earlier response to Craig Hoy. I went through, in some detail, the areas that are being dealt with. The part that we did not get on to is the work that is already going on within the agency to examine the quality of decision making. Rather than repeat what I have already said, can we perhaps talk about the next aspect to that?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2026-27

Meeting date: 16 September 2025

Shirley-Anne Somerville

The target is to ensure that the policy is working effectively. Rather than that work having an arbitrary target, where we say that it will bring down social security or that we expect it to deliver a particular level of saving, it aims to ensure that the policies are fit for purpose and are working in line with the policy intent that Parliament agreed to.

The importance of such work is that we can use it to go back to first principles. What is a review supposed to do? Is it fulfilling the purpose of a review, which is to ensure that if someone is eligible for the benefit they keep that benefit, and if they are not eligible for the benefit they do not get it?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2026-27

Meeting date: 16 September 2025

Shirley-Anne Somerville

What could be inferred from the material in the press is that the Government expected to get £36 million that it is no longer getting. To me, the black hole reference implied that, somehow, because the Scottish Government was not taking part in one part of the UK Government bill—although we are taking part in other parts of it—we were setting aside £36 million. I hope that we have demonstrated to the committee that that is far from the case.

What we have disagreed with the UK Government about is the approach to recovering such money. We will recover it through the types of work that David Wallace’s agency already undertakes. That can be extrapolated to the work that will go on with the additional historical debt, which will now be transferred.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2026-27

Meeting date: 16 September 2025

Shirley-Anne Somerville

I disagree with the suggestion that our benefits are unsustainable. It goes back to the point that eligibility for our benefits has been proposed by the Government and supported by the Parliament. There have been very few exceptions whereby there have been votes against or even abstentions in votes on the current eligibility.

We then get into an important discussion. The headline, which I often hear in the chamber, is that we need to decrease the amount that is spent on social security. The Government’s position is that we do not intend to take benefits away from people and reduce eligibility, so those who wish to see the spend on social security come down need to tell me where changes to eligibility will take place. In essence, eligibility is the biggest, most substantive change that we can make to affect the trajectory of spend.

Aside from that, we need to ensure that the system is as efficient and effective as possible, which we are doing through the mid-term reviews that have been mentioned. We need to consider continuous improvement. Mr Marra may be frustrated with me for not saying whether a certain aspect is a success, but it goes back to our continuous approach. I would never sit with my officials in our internal meetings and say that what we have at the moment is all that it should be. We discuss how to improve—how the system can get better—and how we interpret that going forward.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2026-27

Meeting date: 16 September 2025

Shirley-Anne Somerville

On the bedroom tax mitigation versus free school meals, I do not look at it in that way. With the bedroom tax, we are carrying out a sense check on what difference the mitigation makes. One key reason why we continue to mitigate the bedroom tax—people just assume that it was abolished; it has not been, and we mitigate its cost—is that it is one of the ways in which we attempt to prevent homelessness and assist people. In essence, the mitigation of the bedroom tax is an important aspect of our housing policy that helps people to stay in housing. The benefit is not just about social security; in essence, it is part of housing policy that we deliver through social security.