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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 17 May 2025
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Displaying 3259 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scotland’s Commissioner Landscape

Meeting date: 28 May 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Good morning and welcome to the 19th meeting in 2024 of the Finance and Public Administration Committee. We have apologies from Ross Greer, in whose stead we have Patrick Harvie. Do you have any declarations to make, Patrick?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scotland’s Commissioner Landscape

Meeting date: 28 May 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you very much. I am sure that you are well aware that we have taken extensive evidence already, but I am keen to get the SPCB’s view, because you are key to the whole discussion. Do you agree that the proposals to establish commissioners are driven by a perception of systemic failure and malfunctions in the system? If so, does the SPCB have any view on ways of addressing those systemic failures other than by establishing commissioners?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scotland’s Commissioner Landscape

Meeting date: 28 May 2024

Kenneth Gibson

I just want to get an idea of what scrutiny means with regard to commissioners.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scotland’s Commissioner Landscape

Meeting date: 28 May 2024

Kenneth Gibson

I have a final question about the existing commissioner landscape. We took evidence from some commissioners, and there seemed to be a kind of drawbridge mentality along the lines of “Our commission’s great, actually. In fact, we need more resources and more powers, and we don’t think there should be any more commissioners”—and it was then a case of them pulling up the drawbridge behind them. There is an element of tension between the commissions themselves, certainly when it comes to new commissioners.

We have discussed rapporteurs for the Scottish Human Rights Commission. How clear are you about the efficiency and effectiveness of the delivery of the Scottish Human Rights Commission’s remit? Do you feel that that commission is in a position where it can proceed with rapporteurs, should resources be made available, or do you think that it must do more to ensure a more effective and efficient delivery of what it is already responsible for?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scotland’s Commissioner Landscape

Meeting date: 28 May 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Do you feel that that commission is efficiently and effectively delivering what it is responsible for at the moment? Is that the SPCB’s view? If we are talking about the SHRC becoming the core in future, it is interesting to look at where we are at present in terms of what it is delivering.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scotland’s Commissioner Landscape

Meeting date: 28 May 2024

Kenneth Gibson

This meeting has already generated so many questions and I am keen to let my colleagues in, so I am not going to ask many more.

Your point about a sunset clause is one that I brought up with the SPCB some months ago. I have always thought that a commissioner comes in with a big head of steam and all the ideas, wanting to deliver this and deliver that. One would have thought that, over a period of time, the bulk of what they were set up to achieve would either be achieved or they would hit a wall and not be able to take their role forward. To me, it has always seemed bizarre that commissions, once established, seem to go on for ever. When we ask the commissioners about a sunset clause, they say that it costs so much to set them up, so it is more value for money if we just let them roll on. Understandably, they have some self-interest in that.

Incidentally, on the financing, I do not think that the commissioners that we have spoken to are happy about the £18.2 million spend. Just so that you know for when the next budget bid comes through, they think that they could spend a lot more than that if they were given the opportunity to do so.

09:45  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scotland’s Commissioner Landscape

Meeting date: 28 May 2024

Kenneth Gibson

I think that we are aware of that.

I will finish my questions by asking about scrutiny. From what I am hearing, I do not think that the SPCB is particularly enthusiastic about having such a role. Certainly, the evidence that we have been given is that committees should be more widely involved.

Could you take us through how you scrutinise these roles? When we have taken evidence from the SPCB in the past, we have been told that the body has only one-and-a-half people who can fulfil the scrutiny function. When we look at the depth and breadth of work that some of the commissioners do and the number of staff that they have, it seems as though they are not scrutinised as well as they could be, although they will tell us that they are scrutinised in a robust way. How do you scrutinise the commissioners? Perhaps David McGill is the best person to provide us with an idea of that.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scotland’s Commissioner Landscape

Meeting date: 28 May 2024

Kenneth Gibson

David, do you wish to say anything?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scotland’s Commissioner Landscape

Meeting date: 28 May 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you very much for that. We will continue our evidence taking next week with the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government, so watch this space. I thank the witnesses very much for answering our questions, and thank colleagues, too, for asking them.

We now move into private session to allow our witnesses and the official report to leave.

11:03 Meeting continued in private until 11:41.  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scotland’s Commissioner Landscape

Meeting date: 28 May 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Is that you, Patrick? My God—I thought that you would be asking questions for a good 10 minutes yet. It is clear that you are new to the committee.