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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 7 November 2025
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Displaying 3846 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Kenneth Gibson

Agenda item 3 is formal consideration of motion S6M-16546. I invite the minister to speak to and move the motion.

Motion moved,

That the Finance and Public Administration Committee recommends that the Scottish Landfill Tax (Standard Rate and Lower Rate) Order 2025 (SSI 2025/41) be approved.—[Ivan McKee]

Motion agreed to.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Kenneth Gibson

They will be “lost forever”? You are saying that there is no pressure on the committee, then.

One thing that is said under your policy objectives is that the order will make things

“more streamlined and flexible than primary legislation”.

Has the Scottish Government considered at any point trying to make the process of primary legislation more streamlined and flexible?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Right to Addiction Recovery (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Kenneth Gibson

You represent the rural Highlands and Islands region. One concern that has been raised is about how we ensure that we are able to provide an equitable service. I have rural areas in my constituency, as do most members around the table, with the exception of John Mason and possibly Michelle Thomson. That is a real issue for many of us and for many communities. How would you ensure that the provisions of the bill are delivered equitably, from Stranraer to Shetland?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Right to Addiction Recovery (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Kenneth Gibson

I appreciate that.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Right to Addiction Recovery (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Kenneth Gibson

That has exhausted committee members’ questions, but I still have one or two more.

Going back to the issue that John Mason raised of the £38 million, I think that the concern is not with the policy issue itself but whether the figure is accurate. In other words, the issue is not where you find £38 million, but whether the £38 million—or even the £28 million mentioned—is the right figure.

Even if it were, the Scottish Ambulance Service has said:

“In a time of economic downturn with current budget cuts and constraints it is challenging to imagine how the costs of providing what is outlined in the Bill could be achieved not to mention the ability to develop the associated workforce and infrastructure.”

COSLA, too, has said that

“whilst we agree there would be significant initial costs, we do not agree that there would be a flattening and declining costs in the medium-to-longer term.”

That is notwithstanding the fact that it has access to the same Dame Carol Black report that you have. Moreover, I note that Alcohol Focus Scotland has said that

“estimates for additional investment in services contained in the Financial Memorandum to deliver the aims of the Bill fall short of what is required to ensure equitable access to all of those requiring support.”

You have said that you have used the databases that are available to come up with the £38 million figure, but one of the things that has come through in the evidence that we have received is that there has been an underestimation of on-going and capital support. The Aberdeen city alcohol and drug partnership, which you have touched on, says:

“The Bill uses baseline figures and assumes those figures can all be attributed to a proposed narrow definition of substance use ‘treatment’ with a clinical diagnosis. In reality the current pot of resource available will also go into a wider range of activity drug education, children / family services, justice services, a huge range of third sector services, injecting equipment provision, harm reduction, justice services, consumables, medicines, travel, administration and other indirect costs such as recruitment and training ... To achieve the proposal of all existing funding going into the defined list of ‘treatments’ there would be huge reductions in cross system activity and a significant impact on indirect costs.”

10:45  

The committee took evidence on the National Care Service (Scotland) Bill. As you know, we were unhappy with that financial memorandum, and the Government came back with another. We were also not happy with the Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill’s financial memorandum, because it was not as up to date as it could have been, and we had the cabinet secretary come back to us in that regard. Given the kinds of issue that have been raised in the submissions that we have received, the fact that there appears to be an underestimation in on-going cost—capital and so on—and that, as you said yourself, the financial memorandum was prepared before the change in employer national insurance contributions was perceived, is there an argument for revisiting the financial memorandum?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Right to Addiction Recovery (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Kenneth Gibson

That would be very helpful to you in getting the bill through. I will not go through the further comments that have been made by the Aberdeen city partnership, but you will know that it has raised a number of concerns around housing, employment, deprivation and the long-term availability of substances. If those issues could be looked at and you could come back with something a lot more robust, that would be very helpful.

I turn to Dame Carol Black’s comments about preventative spend, which, arguably, the bill involves. We and our predecessor committees have wrestled with that topic since 2011, and it is an absolute nightmare. Whenever we look at the budget for the forthcoming year or slightly further ahead, many organisations come to us and say that, if we will just spend X amount this year, they can save us three, four, five, six or seven times more in some indeterminate period ahead. Therefore, if more could be done to pin down the relevant savings over a specific time period, that would also be very helpful.

In saying that, I think that this has been a very worthwhile session, and I appreciate the responses that the committee has received.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Kenneth Gibson

Yes, why not? That is something that we should look at.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Kenneth Gibson

Indeed.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Kenneth Gibson

I thank the minister and Mr Macleod for their evidence. We will publish a short report that sets out our decision on the draft instrument.

11:27 Meeting continued in private until 11:55.  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Right to Addiction Recovery (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 11 March 2025

Kenneth Gibson

Yes, but that £160 million is for dealing with the 7,000-odd people who come forward for treatment, not all of whom take it up—we know that about a third do not go forward with it—and those who take up alcohol services. If we increase the budget from, say, £160 million to £198 million, as is suggested in the financial memorandum, but the number of people who seek treatment for drugs alone doubles from more than 7,000 to 15,000, that £198 million will get blown pretty quickly, assuming that all the staff and facilities are already in place.