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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 10 May 2025
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Displaying 3226 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Revenue Scotland

Meeting date: 19 November 2024

Kenneth Gibson

You could always have an exhibition outside the chamber at the bottom of the members’ block. It does not cost anything.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Revenue Scotland

Meeting date: 19 November 2024

Kenneth Gibson

I know. That is because it does not cost anything. [Laughter.]

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Revenue Scotland

Meeting date: 19 November 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you very much for giving evidence today. That concludes the public part of our deliberation, and we will have a two-minute break to allow our official report and broadcasting colleagues, and witnesses, to leave.

12:07 Meeting continued in private until 12:19.  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 19 November 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you for that comprehensive opening statement. I can more or less wind up at that, I suppose, given that you have answered most of the questions.

Everyone on the committee appreciates your passionate commitment to the bill and the topic that it covers, so we will focus specifically on financial matters—which, according to the submissions that we have received, as you will be well aware, are significant.

Paragraph 6 of the financial memorandum says:

“The Member acknowledges that what mechanism the Scottish Ministers use to allocate funding required for this Bill is a matter for them.”

In addition, paragraph 11 says:

“Under this Bill, the responsibility for funding for the provision of residential outdoor education rests with the Scottish Government, thus ensuring blanket provision”.

You mentioned PEF in your opening statement, but what do you believe would be the most appropriate vehicle for the Scottish Government to fund the provisions of the bill, and do you believe that that funding should be ring fenced?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 19 November 2024

Kenneth Gibson

You mentioned such a trust in your opening statement. How would that work? For example, would the Government have to put in some seed money to draw in additional funding from elsewhere, in order to make the trust work?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 19 November 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Pupil equity funding is important, but the point about it is that teachers can decide whether to spend it on outdoor education, books, computers, additional staff or whatever. Is it not therefore a rather unreliable source? You want outdoor education to be baked into legislation so that it is mandatory that every pupil gets to go at some point. Is the approach of relying on PEF to deliver that not a bit fragile? It would surely only ever be additional funding rather than core funding.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 19 November 2024

Kenneth Gibson

What about the cost of cancellations due to adverse weather or pupil illness, for example? The assumptions do not appear to consider what the intent would be on how costs would be met if trips were cancelled or if a pupil was ill.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 19 November 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Good morning and welcome to the 32nd meeting in 2024 of the Finance and Public Administration Committee. We have received apologies from Michael Marra.

Agenda item 1 is evidence taking on the financial memorandum for the Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill from Liz Smith, who is the member in charge of the bill. Liz is joined by Nick Hawthorne, senior clerk at the Scottish Parliament’s non-Government bills unit. I welcome you both to the meeting, and I invite Liz to make a short opening statement.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 19 November 2024

Kenneth Gibson

One issue that has come up in the evidence is the lack of capital funding. You talked about some facilities for the delivery of outdoor education that were closed but have been repurposed and are coming back into use. If there is going to be a surge in demand, with additional numbers, surely that will mean that additional capital will be required. For example, if we think about how the Scottish Government increased the number of funded early learning and childcare hours from 612.5 to 1,140, or about the addition of free school meals for primary 5s to 7s, which is still being deliberated on, a lot of that is about schools’ capacity to provide those things. For nursery school children, they have to build places, in effect. Why is there no capital budget for your proposal in the financial memorandum?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Schools (Residential Outdoor Education) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 19 November 2024

Kenneth Gibson

If 60,000 pupils a year are involved, it will not be 1,200 a week. We have a 38-week school year, but nobody will go in the week or two before Christmas, for example, or the week before the summer holidays. Demand will not be even throughout the year. You will find that it will be pretty skewed. Some centres will fill up very quickly and people will probably have to book them years in advance. I would have thought that the capacity will have to be significantly higher than it might be on paper. On paper, a capacity of 2,000 might be needed, but in reality it might need to be nearer 3,000 or 4,000 simply because people will want to go at certain times because of how the school year operates.