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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 6 November 2025
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Displaying 3846 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Care Reform (Scotland) Bill: Financial Summary

Meeting date: 27 May 2025

Kenneth Gibson

Yes, because that is quite a substantial part of the update that you have provided—your table shows that that element will cost between £97.1 million and £160.9 million a year. We are talking about needing quite a few people.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scottish Public Inquiries (Cost-effectiveness)

Meeting date: 27 May 2025

Kenneth Gibson

I am sorry to interrupt. That is what the legislation says, but I have raised concerns in the committee that, in the inquiries that we have been looking into, there does not seem to have been anything to restrict costs, as far as we can see.

In the Scottish Covid-19 inquiry, for example, the senior counsel, whether they were a member of the Faculty of Advocates or a solicitor, was limited to £200 an hour in fees. I do not know what the fees are for the Bayoh case, for example, but we know that it would not be £200 an hour, because the junior counsel would be a lot less expensive. That would involve 85,000 hours of legal fees just for the police. That is like everyone in Hampden being interviewed for an hour, and there would still be 30,000 people left over.

Laypeople looking at inquiries do not see any cost control. They see that things grow arms and legs. They see that that particular inquiry is costing tens of millions of pounds and that it has lasted five or six years. Other inquiries have lasted longer. Where is the justice at the end of that, from whichever perspective you are looking—from the Police Scotland perspective or from the other perspective? It seems to be a phenomenally expensive process. Can there be any possible positive outcome at the end of it, one wonders, relative to how that money could be spent elsewhere, as the police say?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Care Reform (Scotland) Bill: Financial Summary

Meeting date: 27 May 2025

Kenneth Gibson

To make the changes that you have just discussed, how much are we looking at?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Care Reform (Scotland) Bill: Financial Summary

Meeting date: 27 May 2025

Kenneth Gibson

That has exhausted questions from the committee. I have only a couple more. The first is about Anne’s law, which you touched on. You said:

“It is expected that there will be some costs for care home providers and those supporting care homes, to promote and champion Anne’s Law through staff and provider awareness sessions, formal training, updating visiting policies including the identification of the Essential Care Supporter and for printing leaflets and other administration.”

You then went on to say those would be

“absorbed within the usual costs of following current guidance around named visitor policy”

and so on. Surely, if there are additional responsibilities and training, additional costs will be involved.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scottish Public Inquiries (Cost-effectiveness)

Meeting date: 27 May 2025

Kenneth Gibson

Indeed, but, as Mr Mason pointed out to the previous panel, every document has to be looked at. We are trying to conduct this investigation, if you want to call it that, in a matter of weeks as well as doing all the other things that we have to do as MSPs and so on. One issue that the committee is considering is that time does not seem to be much of a factor in these inquiries. Lord Hardie talked about an inquiry that he chaired that lasted nine years, for example. The Scottish Covid-19 inquiry, which you are involved in, Mr Pugh, has already taken three and a half years, and the UK inquiry has taken four years. More than £200 million has been spent in total, with no end in sight. The Australian Covid-19 inquiry lasted a year and cost £4 million. Was what was delivered any less impactful for the people who had concerns about what happened to their loved ones?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scottish Public Inquiries (Cost-effectiveness)

Meeting date: 27 May 2025

Kenneth Gibson

What kind of oversight is there of fees? Do people just put in an invoice? Who checks that the invoice is correct, for example?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scottish Public Inquiries (Cost-effectiveness)

Meeting date: 27 May 2025

Kenneth Gibson

Ms Dunlop, since 2019,

“the Cabinet Office has run an Inquiries Unit, whose remit is for the whole of the UK, including Scotland, to help share best practice. ”

How has that impacted the sharing of best practice among on-going public inquiries?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scottish Public Inquiries (Cost-effectiveness)

Meeting date: 27 May 2025

Kenneth Gibson

Before I open the discussion to colleagues around the table, I have one final question for you, Mr Pugh. The actions of Government departments, public bodies and others who engage with a public inquiry play a significant role and can contribute significantly to rising costs and extended timelines, which undermines inquiries’ effectiveness and public confidence. In the inquiries that you have been involved in, have you experienced that at all?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scottish Public Inquiries (Cost-effectiveness)

Meeting date: 27 May 2025

Kenneth Gibson

That has exhausted questions from committee members, but I have a brief question for each of you on areas that we have not touched on. The first is for you, Mr Pugh.

Interestingly, the Scottish Parliament information centre briefing that committee members received states that 45 per cent of an inquiry’s time is spent on producing the report. Is there any way in which that process could be expedited?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scottish Public Inquiries (Cost-effectiveness)

Meeting date: 27 May 2025

Kenneth Gibson

My second question is for you, Ms Dunlop. Should Government departments and public bodies be required to respond formally to recommendations within a set timeframe?