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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 1 April 2026
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Displaying 4779 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 18 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

I am pleased to hear that.

The first colleague to ask questions will be our deputy convener, Daniel Johnson, to be followed by Michelle Thomson.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 18 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Good morning, and welcome to the 10th meeting in 2023 of the Finance and Public Administration Committee. Our first agenda item is a virtual evidence session with Diane Owenga, programme director of the Policy Project at the New Zealand Government’s Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet, to inform our inquiry into effective Scottish Government decision making.

Good evening, Ms Owenga, and welcome to the meeting. I understand that you will provide a short presentation on the New Zealand approach.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 18 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

I am delighted that Diane Owenga is back with us. You had not been—

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 18 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

I thank you for spending a big chunk of your evening with us; we realise that it is about half past 10 over in New Zealand. I apologise for the difficulties that we had. I am not sure what end they were on, but it was great that you soldiered on throughout. We really appreciate it.

At future meetings, the committee will continue taking evidence on effective Scottish Government decision making, and I certainly hope that we can engage with you again in the future.

That concludes the public part of today’s meeting.

10:28 Meeting continued in private until 10:57.  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 18 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you very much for that introduction. I do not know whether colleagues heard everything that you said, but we will certainly ask questions and probe.

I will kick off before I invite colleagues around the table to ask questions. I want to go back to the start of the process regarding the Public Service Act 2020, which followed on from another act 32 years previously. Why was it felt that legislation was needed in order to try to change the culture and behaviour in New Zealand?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 18 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

In effect, the process helps best practice to be inculcated across the entire Government. The interim evaluation that was commissioned in late 2020 touched on a number of points, one of which was the fast-paced change of policy work and the difficulties of changing entrenched behaviours. What kind of entrenched behaviours need to be changed in New Zealand?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 18 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

That resonates, because we have some of those issues in Scotland. Our paper says:

“capacity issues and speed of decision making makes prioritisation and following those processes challenging. It also favours decision-making focussed on firefighting rather than addressing longer term challenges and squeezes the time for data analysis and identification of data gaps at the start of policy development.”

How is your new process in New Zealand able to overcome that long-term difficulty, which many Administrations face?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 18 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

That is great. Thank you.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 18 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

I am the very handsome and charismatic one. [Laughter.]

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 18 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

I notice that there is a head of the policy profession who is responsible for improving the policy system—its capabilities, processes and standards—and helping to improve the outcomes that they contribute to, including higher quality policy advice, better Government decisions and better outcomes for people in New Zealand. Our briefing on the Policy Project goes on to say that

“a sample of policy advice papers is assessed by a panel”.

Do you have an example of how that has worked in practice? How do you ensure objectivity, as opposed to subjectivity, in that process?