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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 19 December 2025
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Displaying 4037 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Administration in the Scottish Government

Meeting date: 3 May 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Well, clearly, you are at odds with the committee—which represents four political parties—on this issue. I know that colleagues want to explore that matter in greater detail, so I will allow them to do so.

I have one more question—Lesley Fraser was here last week, and I am sure that she can guess what I am going to ask. Mr Swinney said:

“the permanent secretary is not an individual; they are an office holder.”—[Official Report, Finance and Public Administration Committee, 26 April 2022; c 7.]

Do you agree with that?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Administration in the Scottish Government

Meeting date: 3 May 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you for that clarification. Colleagues are champing at the bit, so I will open out the session. I will go first to Daniel Johnson.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Administration in the Scottish Government

Meeting date: 3 May 2022

Kenneth Gibson

On that note, I will end the meeting, which has been long. I appreciate the permanent secretary’s responses to the committee’s questions. We will continue to explore issues relating to public administration in government.

That concludes the public part of today’s meeting. The next item, which is consideration of appointments and reappointments to the Scottish Fiscal Commission, will be in private.

12:17 Meeting continued in private until 12:28.  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scottish Fiscal Commission (Appointments)

Meeting date: 3 May 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you for that and for your earlier response. I will open up the session to colleagues round the table. The first person to ask questions will be John Mason, to be followed by Daniel Johnson.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scottish Fiscal Commission (Appointments)

Meeting date: 3 May 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you very much. That concludes our questions for the moment. We will let you know, Dr Lombardi.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scottish Fiscal Commission (Appointments)

Meeting date: 3 May 2022

Kenneth Gibson

I welcome to the meeting Professor Graeme Roy, who is nominated as chair of the Scottish Fiscal Commission. As before, we will move straight to questions. [Interruption.] Who stole my questions during the interval? Ah, that is what it is—I wrote them on a completely different set of paper.

You have made it clear in your statement that you are passionate about the Scottish economy, Professor Roy. Why do you want to chair the Scottish Fiscal Commission and what would you change, introduce and improve to enhance the work of the commission?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scottish Fiscal Commission (Appointments)

Meeting date: 3 May 2022

Kenneth Gibson

You have talked a lot about communication; for example, in your statement you said:

“I would be keen to use my networks, including via the ESRC Economic Observatory, to extend the profile of the SFC.”

Can you talk a bit more about that?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scottish Fiscal Commission (Appointments)

Meeting date: 3 May 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you very much.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Administration in the Scottish Government

Meeting date: 3 May 2022

Kenneth Gibson

We have almost exhausted our questions, although Daniel Johnson and I still have some.

Permanent secretary, we have discussed myriad issues this morning, including maintenance and improvement of ethics, openness and transparency, diversity, structure, improving data collection and retention, culture and behaviour, record keeping, outcomes, policy decisions, the relationship with Westminster and giving of evidence to committees.

However, we have not touched on a practical issue that exercises all members of the Scottish Parliament, which is ministerial responses to correspondence. Many MSPs, across the party divides, have expressed great frustration about the time that is taken to respond to letters on matters that are of extreme importance to our constituents, as you can imagine.

We realise that you have had staff issues in recent years because of Covid and so on, but the situation was not great before the pandemic. I have spoken to civil servants who deal with correspondence and I understand that a rigid process has to be undergone before a letter goes to a minister for sign-off. I appreciate that there can be a delay at that point.

What can be done to expedite the process? Also, what can be done to ensure that the response to a letter to a minister relates to the question that is asked? Sometimes I have waited six to eight weeks for a response, only to then be too embarrassed—frankly—to send it to the constituent.

Another issue is that when I send an urgent letter to a minister, it does not seem to be treated differently from a letter that might not be time stressed.

Also, I have recently had to chase up the ministerial correspondence unit on issues that I considered to be of major significance—not to an individual constituent, but more broadly to my constituency—when I have not even received an acknowledgment after six weeks. I note that Liz Smith is nodding fiercely at that comment. What can be done to deal with that very practical and pragmatic issue, which affects all of us?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Public Administration in the Scottish Government

Meeting date: 3 May 2022

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you very much for that very helpful opening statement.

The first point that I will touch on relates to structure, effectiveness and working practices. The civil service is reserved under schedule 5 to the Scotland Act 1998, but

“devolved administrations operate as a single organisation, which is designed to encourage cross-government working”.

When devolution occurred, it was agreed that there would be

“a new, more flexible structure designed to focus the activity of government on collective rather than departmental objectives”,

with a

“relatively compact governing structure”.

Do you feel that that has succeeded? I realise that you have been in post for only a number of weeks and that you are probably still looking at things, but how different do you feel the structure here is from the UK structure, and how do you intend to develop further a distinct Scottish civil service identity?