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Seòmar agus comataidhean

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 5 November 2025
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Displaying 3846 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Public Administration in the Scottish Government

Meeting date: 24 June 2025

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you for that very helpful opening statement—not that it really was helpful, because it has blown away a lot of the questions that I was going to ask. I have been scribbling down more questions as you have been speaking.

You touched on the size of the civil service, which is causing several concerns. The civil service has been described by some Opposition politicians and the media as “bloated”, and you said yourself in your statement that you want the public sector to be “smaller and more agile”. What do you feel would be the optimal size of the civil service in Scotland, and how long will it take to get there?

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Public Administration in the Scottish Government

Meeting date: 24 June 2025

Kenneth Gibson

We have had a very wide range of questions, which I thank you for answering. It cannot be easy to draw on so many different sources of information simultaneously. I know that you will follow up on one or two matters in writing. Before we conclude our meeting, do you wish to make any further points to the committee?

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Public Administration in the Scottish Government

Meeting date: 24 June 2025

Kenneth Gibson

I have a sneaking suspicion that you will not want to mention any who are performing sub-optimally, but are there any who are performing exceptionally well that you can look to as a beacon for others?

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Public Administration in the Scottish Government

Meeting date: 24 June 2025

Kenneth Gibson

I knew that it would be a struggle, but I thought that I would try my best.

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Public Administration in the Scottish Government

Meeting date: 24 June 2025

Kenneth Gibson

That was probably going to be the last question that I asked you, so I am glad that you have touched on it. One of the concerns over the national performance framework is just how widely it is used within Government. There is a feeling among the committee that perhaps too much lip service is paid to it, and that it is not used as a working tool. Is that something that you want to change?

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Public Administration in the Scottish Government

Meeting date: 24 June 2025

Kenneth Gibson

It does not necessarily have to be a figure such as 6,231, to pick a number out of thin air. Surely it could be a range. For example, if there are about 7,000 civil servants just now, would the optimal figure be 6,000 to 6,500, or would it be a smaller range than that? That is the sort of thing that I am looking at.

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Public Administration in the Scottish Government

Meeting date: 24 June 2025

Kenneth Gibson

You say that we can make some reductions and you said that we have reduced the size of the public sector by 5 per cent over three years, but, if there is an optimal size—surely there must be an optimal size—one would have thought that you would be looking to say what the optimal was for each department, and, if we have figures for those, there must be a way to reach a figure for the optimal size overall. It is a bit woolly to say that you do not really know. It is almost as though you are moving in the darkness. It does not inspire confidence that you do not know what target you are aiming for, does it?

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Public Administration in the Scottish Government

Meeting date: 24 June 2025

Kenneth Gibson

On the place point, are you looking to declutter the landscape? There used to be a couple of hundred public bodies, whereas now you are responsible for about 125 or 130 non-departmental public bodies, and there are also local authorities, health boards, integration joint boards, community planning partnerships and city and regional deals. I wonder how many people in Scotland know how all those things work together.

Given that Scotland has a population of 5.4 million across 75,000km2, is there an argument to include that landscape in the reform agenda? Most people want a major decluttering of the public sector landscape to ensure that more money is spent on front-line public services.

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Public Administration in the Scottish Government

Meeting date: 24 June 2025

Kenneth Gibson

I remember calling for a change more than 10 years ago, and we are still dipping our toes in the water.

You have talked about vision and about being dynamic, and the pace of change is important. I should say—and I have used this analogy before—that, when I was at university, I never once handed an essay in late; however, I never did the essay until the night before, because I had a deadline to work to. I always feel that, if there is no deadline, you will just do something else. I am one of those people who are very goal and task driven and who like to have something done by a certain date, so that they can move on to the next thing.

There seems to be a lot of passion and energy in what you are saying, but I like things to be pinned down whenever possible, so that everyone knows in what direction they are heading. Will there be—to use a United Kingdom phrase of the past year—milestones along the way?

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Public Administration in the Scottish Government

Meeting date: 24 June 2025

Kenneth Gibson

Basically, what happens is that several hundred million pounds is moved from, say, the health and social care budget to the education budget. The same movements happen every year, but when we question the Government on it, it says, “Well, one thing is grounded in policy and the other is grounded in delivery.” It seems that, if we want the transparency that you talked about in your opening remarks, it is important that things are done as clearly as possible and that we do not have to go through the same process every year.