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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 6 May 2025
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Displaying 3226 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2022-23: Public Finances and the Impact of Covid-19

Meeting date: 14 September 2021

Kenneth Gibson

I am sorry, but I have to interrupt you because of time limitations and the need to get in all witnesses during this session. I do not want to interrupt your flow too much, but I think that we fully understand the position that you are articulating. The issue is what do we do about it.

For example, we have been advised by the Parliament’s financial scrutiny unit that the real-terms increase in budget is likely to be 2 per cent across the board. Obviously, therefore, difficult decisions have to be made on the public finances. If additional resources were to be provided to local government—we do not know whether we will get any additional moneys related to Covid in the future—where should that money come from? Should there be additional taxation, or should money be shifted from other budgets? If there is additional taxation, who should pay, and how much should they pay?

Everyone who comes to the committee—we had a number of witnesses last week—suggests additional funding for their particular area of interest, but we are trying to find a balance. If people say that there should be additional funding, we need to know what additional resource is required, given the financial situation that we are in, otherwise we will not get any further forward.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2022-23: Public Finances and the Impact of Covid-19

Meeting date: 14 September 2021

Kenneth Gibson

Linda Somerville, your submission talks about the

“need for restorative pay settlements”;

the

“need to massively expand publicly owned housing”;

and the need for

“a street-by-street home retrofitting programme”.

It also mentions a number of other issues, such as Government support for

“providing good quality, unionised jobs.”

Have any costings gone into that? As I mentioned a few minutes ago, there are obviously significant pressures on the budget. You talk about taxation in your submission, so perhaps you can expand on that in your response.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2022-23: Public Finances and the Impact of Covid-19

Meeting date: 14 September 2021

Kenneth Gibson

David, the NPF has been around for some 14 years, so do you think that there are some transparency issues in relation to the NPF and how it works across Government?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2022-23: Public Finances and the Impact of Covid-19

Meeting date: 14 September 2021

Kenneth Gibson

Does David Eiser or Susan Murray wish to comment?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2022-23: Public Finances and the Impact of Covid-19

Meeting date: 14 September 2021

Kenneth Gibson

In that case, I will move to questions from committee members, and I am pretty sure that one area in particular is going to be focused on very quickly.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2022-23: Public Finances and the Impact of Covid-19

Meeting date: 14 September 2021

Kenneth Gibson

We probably all need to do that, to be perfectly honest. Lastly, what is the STUC’s view on targeting versus universalism?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2022-23: Public Finances and the Impact of Covid-19

Meeting date: 14 September 2021

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you. I thank all our witnesses. We have run over time, but we will have a break until 11.15.

11:03 Meeting suspended.  

11:13 On resuming—  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2022-23: Public Finances and the Impact of Covid-19

Meeting date: 14 September 2021

Kenneth Gibson

We now turn to our second panel of witnesses on Scotland’s public finances and the impact of Covid-19. We are joined by David Eiser, senior knowledge exchange fellow, Fraser of Allander Institute; Susan Murray, director, David Hume Institute; and Ray Perman, fellow, Royal Society of Edinburgh. I intend to allow up to 90 minutes for this session. Members have received written submissions from each of our witnesses. I welcome everyone to the meeting—I give the witnesses a particularly warm welcome for coming here in person, which the committee greatly appreciates.

I start by asking something of the David Hume Institute. Under item 3 in its submission, it says:

“At a time of multiple challenges and tight public finances, hard choices are almost certainly going to involve choosing to stop spending money on services or initiatives that are achieving public good, and are valued by their recipients or stakeholders in order to start or increase spending on other areas that are now judged a higher priority.”

With many of the witnesses we have heard from, it has been like drawing teeth to get them to say where they would disinvest. Everyone has come to the committee and said, “We require additional funding in our areas.” We have explained that we might have only a 2 per cent real-terms increase in the budget, but all our witnesses appear to feel that that should be specifically targeted at their sector.

I hope that Susan Murray and other colleagues will help by contributing some ideas as to where disinvestment can take place, because, if we are going to spend money more effectively and deliver better outcomes, that will need to happen. Do you have any examples that you can share with the committee?

11:15  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2022-23: Public Finances and the Impact of Covid-19

Meeting date: 14 September 2021

Kenneth Gibson

Indeed—I suppose so. However, it would affect some people disproportionately. If they then had to invest elsewhere, they might not necessarily gain proportionately.

What is David Eiser’s view on the matter? Where should we look to disinvest if we are going to spend or invest—however you want to phrase it—in order to have more effective outcomes for Scotland?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2022-23: Public Finances and the Impact of Covid-19

Meeting date: 14 September 2021

Kenneth Gibson

I wonder if we can hear briefly from Ray Perman and Susan Murray on this question. After all, it is fundamental to what we are trying to achieve.