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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 19 December 2025
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Displaying 4037 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 14 March 2023

Kenneth Gibson

I thank Professor Cairney for his evidence this morning and his excellent report.

Meeting closed at 10:58.  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 14 March 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Thanks for that very positive ending to your opening remarks. [Laughter.]

Your report brings into sharp focus the monumental nature of the inquiry that we have decided to embark on, because we could move in so many different directions. There is a clear difference between political rhetoric and reality. I mean that in the most positive sense. For a number of reasons—one relates to resources—politicians from all political parties are not always able to deliver on the ground what they seek to achieve.

We are focusing on how decisions can be made more effectively. When we speak to a number of civil servants from different departments next week, it will be interesting to find out whether there is a coherent decision-making structure in the Scottish Government, or whether some parts of the structure make decisions significantly differently from others. What is your experience of that?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 14 March 2023

Kenneth Gibson

John Mason and I were members of the Finance Committee between 2011 and 2016, and we did a lot of work on prevention. There were a number of frustrations at that time. First, we can all identify good approaches to preventative spending, but it is extremely difficult to get the resources to disengage from delivery models that are not working particularly effectively. Secondly, everything that we do is, of course, within the hothouse of the chamber and the media. Everything is measured by the number of nurses, the number of police officers and so on rather than necessarily by outcomes at the end, although there are attempts across the board to have more focus on those outcomes.

We understand that there is no perfect delivery system. In your introduction, you say that Governments can aspire to do wonderful things but that there are innate contradictions. For example, involving a number of partners in the decision-making process can conflict with strong central decision making and a decisive ethos so that people outside can see where their Government is heading and what it plans to do.

10:00  

I suppose that it is about trying to look at the least imperfect system. In the report, you look at New Zealand in some detail including, for example, how New Zealand might own some of its failures of policy—although I think that the Opposition will do its best to point that out without any Scottish Government involvement being necessary. You also point to some of the successes in Wales and what is being done there.

Although they are in the report, would you talk to a couple of those examples for the record? Also, can you go beyond New Zealand and Wales to talk about where else we could look at. There are international models of delivery. Are there other areas that you think the Scottish Government—and, indeed, this committee—could look at?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 14 March 2023

Kenneth Gibson

“I have given up” is not a good start.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 14 March 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Yes—I, too, am restraining myself from coming in on the back of that.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 14 March 2023

Kenneth Gibson

It looks like a Cy Twombly drawing—if it was, it would be worth around $70 million.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 14 March 2023

Kenneth Gibson

I wonder how that would work here, in reality. It depends on who is doing the scoring.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 14 March 2023

Kenneth Gibson

I mentioned the BBC to colleagues before the public session started. It is quite easy for reputations to disappear or be damaged almost overnight, to a degree.

I am jumping about a bit here, because the report is so interesting—I could spend the whole time asking loads of questions, but colleagues will want to come in, and they always get narky if I take too long at the start—I think that John Mason may agree.

You say in the report that the new public management approach did not succeed even according to the objectives that it set for itself, which is an interesting point.

I will highlight one of the issues. We can have all the great theories that we like and all the structures that we want to implement, but the important thing is to have capacity. You ask,

“Does the Scottish Government have sufficient policy capacity?”,

and you look at generalist civil servants versus specialisms. You talk about leadership training and how much capacity exists even outside the civil service for Government to tap into. You also mention

“the risk of ineffective government when policy capacity and training does not live up to the Scottish Government’s ... expectations”

and the expectations of the people whom it represents. Where are we at with capacity, and what could we do to improve and enhance it?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 14 March 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Ferries are boats that carry people.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 14 March 2023

Kenneth Gibson

To wind up the session, I have three further questions to ask.

One of the things that I really like about your report is the wee take-home messages, which I think are quite helpful. In one of those, on page 16, you said:

“new ideas are applied patchily to established practices.”

How could that be improved?