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Seòmar agus comataidhean

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 18 December 2025
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Displaying 4037 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 25 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Do our witnesses have any further points that they would like to make before we wind up the session? Is there anything that you think that we should have touched on but did not?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 25 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you very much for your contributions—they have been extremely helpful. I also thank you for travelling to Scotland, which makes a huge difference to the quality of the evidence that we take. I say that as someone who is quite averse to virtual meetings in the first place; on top of that, the committee has recently faced some difficult situations, involving all sorts of snarl-ups, in virtual meetings. Your attendance in person is much appreciated.

We will have a five-minute break while we change witnesses.

10:53 Meeting suspended.  

11:01 On resuming—  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 25 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Exactly. Take as much time as you need.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 25 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Yes, that has come through strongly in evidence. I am now going to open up the session.

10:00  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 25 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

One of the things that you mentioned in your submission was churn. You said:

“Churn among civil servants is an issue across the civil service in both Whitehall and across the devolved administrations, which is encouraged for the development of generalist civil servants ... Researchers have also commented adversely about churn among politicians”.

I had a wee look. Apparently, in the year to September 2022, the UK Government had five education secretaries and, from 2000 to 2022, it had 22 housing ministers. Here at Holyrood, we have had four transport ministers in two years. How much does the churn in ministers, as well as in civil servants, militate against good decision making?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 25 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Dr Foster, does the workload of ministers mean that they cannot keep their eye constantly on the ball? Does that have an impact on the quality of decisions, and does it mean that some of the decisions are, in effect, outsourced because they have to rely on other people to have a full grasp of the detail?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 25 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Indecisiveness is obviously a concern in some instances.

I will wind up the session by giving our witnesses the opportunity to make any final points if they feel that we have not touched on an issue or if they wish to emphasise something.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 25 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Before you come in, I note that you touched on workload earlier. Obviously, ministers can have a dozen meetings a day. They have to respond to questions in the chamber, formulate policy and speak in debates. They are often pressed to deliver—or indeed are proactive in delivering—statements. They might have a constituency, and they probably have a home and family life. How do they manage to balance effective decision making with those pressures?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 25 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Finally, there is the 24-hour news cycle and pressure from ministers to make announcements. They want to be seen to be successful by their own political party as well as the wider public; given that they have the life expectancy of a Hibs or Chelsea manager, you can understand why they want to make an impact right away.

If we are thinking about how we achieve significant long-term outcomes, it all comes back to the same issue of churn and stability in the relationship between the civil service and ministers. Ministers often come up with wonderful ideas that might not be wonderful when it comes to implementation, and they might well long since have moved on by the time that the ideas are actually implemented.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Effective Scottish Government Decision Making

Meeting date: 25 April 2023

Kenneth Gibson

That phrase “monopoly of wisdom” is interesting. We have talked about generalism versus specialism in the civil service but, of course, ministers are almost all generalists. Some of them are appointed to portfolios that they have no understanding of and in which they had no real interest before they were appointed. Indeed, they might rather have been offered a completely different portfolio. That means that they are even more reliant on special advisers and their civil servants.

Given that that situation is unlikely to change and that all Governments will continue to promote generalists, how can we enhance decision making in that context?