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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 19 December 2025
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Displaying 4037 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Sustainability of Scotland’s Finances

Meeting date: 19 September 2023

Kenneth Gibson

That is very helpful. You have touched on wealth taxes, which I wanted to ask about next. We will be taking evidence in a round-table meeting straight after this session, and we will be speaking to the witnesses about that issue, because a number of them have suggested that, over a relatively short time, wealth taxes could raise quite substantial sums of money, if not in the current financial year then in financial year 2025-26. What is your view on that?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Sustainability of Scotland’s Finances

Meeting date: 19 September 2023

Kenneth Gibson

I agree, but no one tells us what we should be disinvesting from—that is the problem.

12:45  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Sustainability of Scotland’s Finances

Meeting date: 19 September 2023

Kenneth Gibson

If we had more time, I would talk to you about the taxation of occupational pensions.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Sustainability of Scotland’s Finances

Meeting date: 19 September 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Very quickly.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Sustainability of Scotland’s Finances

Meeting date: 19 September 2023

Kenneth Gibson

I thank all our guests. I will allow them to leave and we will then have a short five-minute private session. We will put most of our private work programme to one side and discuss two issues very quickly, seeing as time is marching on.

12:47 Meeting continued in private until 12:54.  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Sustainability of Scotland’s Finances

Meeting date: 19 September 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Yes—they start to lose it at £50,000.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Sustainability of Scotland’s Finances

Meeting date: 19 September 2023

Kenneth Gibson

That first figure is assuming no behavioural impact, is it?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Sustainability of Scotland’s Finances

Meeting date: 19 September 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Yes, because of the message that is being sent.

In your submission, you have said:

“tax increases are likely to be unpopular and possibly counter productive and ... funding reductions to other spending priorities are likely to be valued more by the electorate than the gains resulting from the introduction of the new policy—this is so-called ‘loss aversion’”.

I find that quite interesting. I have talked about that a number of times in committee with regard to council tax reform: the people who gain will just shrug their shoulders, but the people who lose will be less than chuffed. In fact, the consultation on council tax closes tomorrow, and no one has contacted me to say, “This is great”, but I have had plenty of people tell me that they are not too chuffed about it. Perhaps you can say something about that, Professor Bell, and then I will let João Sousa in.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Sustainability of Scotland’s Finances

Meeting date: 19 September 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Thanks.

Professor Heald, you have said:

“budget documentation should set out clearly the additional cost of ‘above-parity’ expenditure and the reduced costs from ‘below-parity’ expenditure.”

Would you like to touch on that?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Sustainability of Scotland’s Finances

Meeting date: 19 September 2023

Kenneth Gibson

However, what the economists have said is that, if you implement some of these policies, you will not get any more money, because people will simply avoid it, work less hard or leave Scotland. For example, they said that, when the top rate went up by 1p in the pound last year, 90 per cent of that revenue was lost through behavioural change. Someone who works five days a week might say, “Do you know what? I am just going to work four days a week because I am not going to lose all that money to tax. Why should I work for that?” It is one thing to say that, if we do X, we will raise an extra £500 million or whatever in tax, but if we lose 90 per cent of that or possibly end up losing £600 million in tax because we have implemented that change, it does not deliver the changes that you and, I am sure, everybody really want to see. Everybody wants to tackle poverty, create better-paid jobs and have more money for the health service, but how do we realistically fund that when the impact of behavioural change is so fundamental to doing that? You can raise tax as much as you like, but if the money goes elsewhere, how do you deliver?