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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 19 December 2025
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Displaying 4037 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 23 January 2024

Kenneth Gibson

I am one of those people who likes precise figures. Over the years, we have had plenty of financial memorandums that have provided precise figures.

I will ask just one more question, because I know that colleagues are keen to come in; it is about additional Scottish Government staff costs. Our briefing paper states:

“The final section of the new FM notes that certain Scottish Government staff costs are already being incurred in the region of £10 million per annum and would continue to be incurred even if the NCS proposals did not go ahead.”

What are those staff currently engaged in, and what will their role be if the proposals do not go ahead? There does not seem to be any detail on the number of staff involved or on their salaries or grades; we simply have a statement that those costs are in the region of £10 million. It is not very transparent.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 23 January 2024

Kenneth Gibson

I do not have the information in front of me, but my understanding was that you said that you would not be able to report even every six months, as it would contradict the Scottish Government’s annual financial assessments. It would have to be once a year. However, you are now saying that it could be once a quarter.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 23 January 2024

Kenneth Gibson

I have a couple of points to finish. I want to follow up on what John Mason said on the IT front. The new financial memorandum says that from

“2023-24 through to 2025-26 costs are significantly lower than previously estimated”.

It also says:

“The internal staff skillset will be utilised in favour of externally contracted services.”

I am not really sure what that means. I would have thought that it would say “rather than” instead of “in favour of”—there seems to be a contradiction there.

The memorandum goes on to say:

“It is expected a portion of the staff costs will be in the data and digital space, some of which will be shorter term contractors with specific skills for set periods of time.”

Whenever I see the word “contractors”, I always see pound signs ratcheting up pretty quickly, so I am wondering where the parameters are for that.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 23 January 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you—we will certainly return to that on Thursday. I thank Donna Bell, Lee Flannigan and Richard McCallum for their contributions.

The committee will continue to take evidence on the updated financial memorandum at our next meeting, which will be on Thursday 25 January, when we will hear from the Minister for Social Care, Mental Wellbeing and Sport. That concludes the public part of today’s meeting—we will now move into private session to discuss our work programme.

11:47 Meeting continued in private until 11:52.  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Replacing European Union Structural Funds

Meeting date: 18 January 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Has that happened? Do you have any examples of where that has happened in Scotland?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Replacing European Union Structural Funds

Meeting date: 18 January 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Yes; something like 21 of 32 Scottish local authorities have received awards through the three rounds.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Replacing European Union Structural Funds

Meeting date: 18 January 2024

Kenneth Gibson

The Western Isles is one of the most deprived areas of Scotland and the most rural. It is suffering depopulation and has not received any funding. That is an issue.

I will quote what the National Audit Office says:

“The three funds”—

the UK prosperity fund, the levelling up fund and the towns fund—

“have overlapping objectives but were designed and announced at different times, such that local authorities could not align their plans”.

The NAO seems to indicate that UK Government departments were perhaps not speaking to each other in the way that they should have been so that you could get a more complete and rounded picture and resources could be allocated much more effectively and efficiently. Is there some truth in that?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Replacing European Union Structural Funds

Meeting date: 18 January 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you very much for your time, secretary of state—it is appreciated by members of the committee. We hope that you will come back to the committee in the near future. We had hoped to see you in October 2022, and it has been a long time since then. It would be wonderful to see you in person, and we could go into some of these subjects in greater depth. The Scottish Parliament has an important role to play in relation to scrutiny and transparency of the funding, and the committee looks forward to continuing its work with you.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Replacing European Union Structural Funds

Meeting date: 18 January 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you. I call this meeting to a close.

Meeting closed at 12:00.  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Replacing European Union Structural Funds

Meeting date: 18 January 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you for that opening statement. I will kick off with a few questions, and then I will let colleagues in from around the table.

One of the key issues with the whole levelling up agenda is the actual volume of cash that has been allocated. When I refer to that agenda, I am also talking about the other funding streams that you mentioned. Colleagues will go into some of those in a bit more depth, but how does the money that has been not only allocated to, but actually spent in, Scotland in the past three years compare to what it would have been had Scotland remained in the European Union?