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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 19 December 2025
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Displaying 4037 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 January 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Again, that makes one wonder why there is almost a go-slow in delivery of the legislation. The legislation will be enacted four years after stage 1. If the legislation is going to deliver such savings and such improvements to people’s lives—which I think everyone wants—it is worrying that it will not be implemented next year or the year after, but in 2028 or 2029.

We have all had a letter from Social Work Scotland, which has been trailed in the media, that questions the 25 per cent that you talked about and whether it is in real terms, cash terms or somewhere in between.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 January 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Instead of my sitting here and wading through all the numbers that I have piled up in front of me, will you tell us what the differential would be in those years?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 January 2024

Kenneth Gibson

I am just wondering when we will get that, because that will enable us to compare the spend with other budget lines in the Scottish budget, which is of fundamental importance.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 January 2024

Kenneth Gibson

That is very helpful.

On Tuesday, I made a point about the assumption in the financial memorandum that, in the first eight years, expenditure will rise by 41.5 per cent across all areas of social care services—adult social care, children, families, justice social work and the service strategy. That includes the 2 per cent that you have allowed for inflation plus 3 per cent real-terms growth. That means growth of about 25 per cent to 2031-32. However, minister, you have already said that the extra £840 million that will be allocated to social care staff is a cash-terms figure.

How will that expenditure be protected in real terms if, at the end of the day, over this session of Parliament, you are talking about a 25 per cent increase only in cash terms? It looks as though separate measures are being used and that one of them is not being increased by inflation plus 3 per cent.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 January 2024

Kenneth Gibson

No—forget the original memorandum. I am looking at where we are now. What are the margins under the financial memorandum now?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 January 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Sure.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 January 2024

Kenneth Gibson

There is also prevention, of course, if the system is implemented. John Mason and I have been on this committee for a long time, and we discussed exactly the same thing in 2011 and 2012. Unfortunately, the delivery of prevention seems to be a different ball game from talking about it, because the delivery is just not happening to the degree that we want it to.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 January 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you for that very helpful and informative introduction.

I had intended to start where we left off on Tuesday. I still intend to do that in a couple of minutes, but I notice that you said that there was some misreporting of the finances in relation to our deliberations on Tuesday. Could you provide some clarification of that and put the position correctly on the record?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 January 2024

Kenneth Gibson

I have a few points to finish off. We have discussed the £3.9 billion, which I again make clear relates to what the bill previously included. Will you confirm that, under the revised financial memorandum, we are looking at a variance of between £631 million and £916 million over the 10-year period?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 January 2024

Kenneth Gibson

No—I am not asking about value. On this occasion I am asking about actual numbers. You are phasing the legislation in over 10 years, so you are looking at costs over 10 years. However, if you shift implementation forward three years, you are looking not at 13 years but at three dead years, effectively, plus seven years. You are making a comparison with 10 years under the old financial memorandum. A few million pounds is a lot of money, but when we consider what it would have been in that three years, plus the first seven years of implementation, we are not comparing like with like.