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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 12 June 2025
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Displaying 3407 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Sustainability of Scotland’s Finances

Meeting date: 19 September 2023

Kenneth Gibson

It is helpful to an extent, because it helps us to focus. A number of people, including the economists who were here before, have talked about three-year or five-year funding. The Scottish Government is not funded beyond year to year, but there is still the question whether we should plan. I was on the Social Justice Committee during the 1999 to 2003 parliamentary session. We produced a detailed report on why we should do exactly what you have suggested and, 20-odd years later, we are still taking about it. It is a fundamental point, although you have not put pounds, shillings and pence on it.

Ruth, you have some statistical analysis in your report and you have produced some wonderful graphs. Talk us through, in a few short minutes, exactly what additional resources we should provide, Given all the caveats about wealth tax—that it cannot be implemented for the next financial year and so on, according to the economists—what can we do in the next year in order to deliver the agenda that you, the IPPR and others would like?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Sustainability of Scotland’s Finances

Meeting date: 19 September 2023

Kenneth Gibson

The last person to comment will be Adam Stachura. Each of our guests will then have one minute to wind up and to mention anything that has not been covered so far.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Sustainability of Scotland’s Finances

Meeting date: 19 September 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Judith, you have a minute or so to wind up.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Sustainability of Scotland’s Finances

Meeting date: 19 September 2023

Kenneth Gibson

There are a couple of points there. First, the suggestion not to lower the bus pass age from 65 to 60 came not from me but from Callum Chomczuk, who was then at Age Scotland, during the 2011 to 2016 parliamentary session. He said that the money saved should be spent on adaptations for older people. I thought that what Age Scotland had to say at that time was very brave. So many people come here—I am not mentioning any names or looking at anyone specifically—and say that we should spend more money on this, but they do not say how we can save money on that. We as a committee and the Scottish Government have to look at that. John Swinney then said that he was not going to reduce the bus pass age from 65 to 60 but would increase the disabled adaptations budget by 25 per cent. So, there was a big win there for Age Scotland.

You touched on people having to sell their homes, not just because of the wealth tax but to go into a residential care home. That affected my mother and many other people. I was speaking to a leading economist, who has a good relationship with this committee, and he said that two of his aunties said, “You know what? Rather than go into a care home and see the house getting sold, we will just go on a world cruise for the next couple of years and spend the money that way.” That was not a flippant remark; that is what they did. There are some people who, of course, are not able to save up and buy a house, and they do not have an asset to sell. People who feel that they have an asset that they might want to pass on, at least in part, to their children are unable to do so. There is a real issue about the fairness of that.

One of the things that people talk about is fairness. I do not know whether anyone wants to define it for me. Fairness for one person is, perhaps, fairness for another. Anyway, I am starting to wander off as well. The next person to comment will be Judith Turbyne, to be followed by Michael Kellet.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Sustainability of Scotland’s Finances

Meeting date: 19 September 2023

Kenneth Gibson

It is a chicken-and-egg situation, is it not? If the economy does not grow and we are not able to attract inward investment because people feel that they will be taxed disproportionately highly, we will not have the money to provide those services. Scotland could become more of a backwater, with more young people leaving and the population stagnating and declining. We had the lowest population growth in the entire world in the 20th century. For example, two million people emigrated in the half century after world war one.

There are real issues to address in the whole package. It is about trying to get the optimum right, not the maximum or the minimum, so that we can achieve what most of us want to achieve.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Sustainability of Scotland’s Finances

Meeting date: 19 September 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Does that answer your question, Michael?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Sustainability of Scotland’s Finances

Meeting date: 19 September 2023

Kenneth Gibson

I was going to ask you about capital expenditure. I do not like to interrupt you in free flow, but I also asked about behavioural change. For example, what would the impact on people be if the Scottish Government decided that, because, politically, it would be very difficult to cut spending or whatever, it would have to hit the 1 or 2 per cent of the highest taxpayers? You talked about people who are just over the threshold of the higher marginal rate. What impact would it have on them?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Sustainability of Scotland’s Finances

Meeting date: 19 September 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Will that be impacted by the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Sustainability of Scotland’s Finances

Meeting date: 19 September 2023

Kenneth Gibson

I think that it will be a theme that everyone will talk about areas that we could spend more money in but no one will say that we should spend less on other areas.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Sustainability of Scotland’s Finances

Meeting date: 19 September 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Stuart, you have been very patient.