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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 10 June 2025
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Displaying 3407 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 26 September 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Good morning, and welcome to the 24th meeting in 2023 of the Finance and Public Administration Committee. Under our first agenda item, we will take evidence from the Minister for Social Care, Mental Wellbeing and Sport on the financial memorandum for the National Care Service (Scotland) Bill. The minister is joined by Scottish Government officials Donna Bell, the director of social care and national care service development, and Fiona Bennett, the interim deputy director for national health service, integration and social care finance. I welcome the witnesses to the meeting.

I invite the minister to make a short opening statement.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 26 September 2023

Kenneth Gibson

I know that consultancy figures are around £246,000 less than anticipated, but it still seems an awful lot of money for training people on a bill when we do not know how it will look. It is clear in the papers that we have received that a lot of the co-design work continues to take place. What was the staff training on?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 26 September 2023

Kenneth Gibson

You will understand that that makes scrutiny quite difficult. Minister, in your letter of 9 May, you said:

“It is not possible to separate costs relating to the provisions of the Bill and those which result from the wider NCS programme.”

That makes it very difficult to assess whether public money is being spent effectively. Can you give us a wee bit more information on that? One reason that the financial memorandum caused such alarm to the committee was because we were not getting those breakdowns and because of the scale of the money involved.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 26 September 2023

Kenneth Gibson

I will go into the figures in a minute or two, just before I let colleagues in, but I note that you said in your letter:

“An initial consensus proposal between the Scottish Government and Cosla (on behalf of local government) has been formed on a partnership approach that will provide for shared legal accountability. This will improve the experience of people accessing services by introducing a new structure of national oversight to drive consistency of outcomes, whilst maximising the benefits of a reformed local service delivery.”

You have also talked about the formation of a national board to provide

“national oversight and governance of social work, social care support and community health”.

How will that body actually work? When is it likely to be up and running, so to speak?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 26 September 2023

Kenneth Gibson

One of the figures that draws the eye is expenditure on engagement. It was envisaged in 2022-23 that the cost would be £475,000, but it turned out to be £1,026,000. The cost has also declined to a very small £7,000 in the most recent quarter of the current financial year. Why did the Scottish Government get the figures for engagement so out of kilter, and why has there been such a decline in the costs? I would have thought that with co-design there would have been more rather than less engagement. What is the Scottish Government’s thinking in that respect?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 26 September 2023

Kenneth Gibson

I hope that we will get more detail on that in the financial memorandum. I do not expect you to say, for example, 63.5 per cent, but it would be helpful to know the ballpark shares that we are talking about—perhaps two thirds or a half.

I appreciate the time given by the minister and her officials. In order to prepare for the next evidence session, we will have a wee break.

10:35 Meeting suspended.  

10:41 On resuming—  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Sustainability of Scotland’s Finances

Meeting date: 26 September 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Okay. Is the FSB having discussions with the Scottish ministers about how the £15 million entrepreneurship fund could and should be spent?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Sustainability of Scotland’s Finances

Meeting date: 26 September 2023

Kenneth Gibson

That is absolutely fine; I just wanted to get your view on it and to know how important it is to you.

In your submission, you said that you want a

“more sensible approach to regulation”,

but you did not spell out what you mean by that. What devolved regulation do you think hampers small businesses in Scotland that we could try to remove or change?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 26 September 2023

Kenneth Gibson

What is that balance? Is it 30:70, 20:80 or 40:60? What are we talking about?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Sustainability of Scotland’s Finances

Meeting date: 26 September 2023

Kenneth Gibson

The whole purpose of this inquiry is to try to present a report to the Scottish Government in which we say, “These are the priorities that the Government should take forward in the next financial year.” We know that, at this stage, there is a £1 billion funding gap and that finances are challenging. It is very easy for witnesses to come along and say, “You should spend more money in our sector.” We have already had that from all sectors, but it is simply not possible unless we raise taxation very significantly—which, frankly, other witnesses have suggested that we do.

What kind of additional reliefs are we talking about? I think that the latest figure for rates relief is £693 million. How could that be changed or increased, and how could any change or increase be funded to deliver more for the hospitality sector in Scotland?