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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 23 May 2025
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Displaying 3259 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 6 February 2024

Kenneth Gibson

It is important that the Scottish Police Authority is able to provide housing, particularly in rural and island areas. Do you have any idea how much relief would apply if, for example, they were included in a future SSI, or has that not been calculated as yet?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 January 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you for that very helpful and informative introduction.

I had intended to start where we left off on Tuesday. I still intend to do that in a couple of minutes, but I notice that you said that there was some misreporting of the finances in relation to our deliberations on Tuesday. Could you provide some clarification of that and put the position correctly on the record?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 January 2024

Kenneth Gibson

I have a few points to finish off. We have discussed the £3.9 billion, which I again make clear relates to what the bill previously included. Will you confirm that, under the revised financial memorandum, we are looking at a variance of between £631 million and £916 million over the 10-year period?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 January 2024

Kenneth Gibson

No—I am not asking about value. On this occasion I am asking about actual numbers. You are phasing the legislation in over 10 years, so you are looking at costs over 10 years. However, if you shift implementation forward three years, you are looking not at 13 years but at three dead years, effectively, plus seven years. You are making a comparison with 10 years under the old financial memorandum. A few million pounds is a lot of money, but when we consider what it would have been in that three years, plus the first seven years of implementation, we are not comparing like with like.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 January 2024

Kenneth Gibson

There will still be a significant saving then.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 January 2024

Kenneth Gibson

That is a considerable saving—that is interesting.

All colleagues will probably ask about co-design—it is a major part of the bill and is an issue of concern to the committee because of its implications, not least for the committee’s scrutiny function. Donna Bell gave detailed replies on that on Tuesday, when she talked about five themes: keeping care support local; information sharing; making sure that people’s voices are heard; realising rights and responsibilities; and valuing the workforce. You said that those themes are important and that

“the co-design work for the primary legislation has, in effect, been concluded and that we will move on to the development of further work on areas such as the charter, complaints and advocacy.”

You also said:

“we already have a good understanding of what is required for the secondary legislation.”—[Official Report, Finance and Public Administration Committee, 23 January 2024; c 10-11.]

If that is the situation, is there any possibility of including more on co-design in the bill at stage 2, or perhaps at stage 3, so that there is more of it in the primary legislation?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 January 2024

Kenneth Gibson

I want both.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 January 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Basically, the GDP deflator is about 1.7 per cent and you are using an inflation rate of 2 per cent. Is that right?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 January 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Thanks very much. I will now open the session to colleagues around the table. Liz Smith is first.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 25 January 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Those are the figures that I just gave—that is fine.

On Tuesday, Donna Bell said:

“you would expect us to build in a range of costs because of future potential uncertainty”.—[Official Report, Finance and Public Administration Committee, 23 January 2024; c 4.]

Where does the greatest uncertainty lie in the variables? Not all the figures vary by 45 per cent. What is being done to address the greatest variables?