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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 19 May 2025
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Displaying 3259 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 7 May 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Okay. I have a final question and point. Obviously, we have had a detailed discussion today, as we had on 26 March, but it all stems from the fact that the Government presented to the committee figures that it knew were completely inaccurate. The costs of the bill have evolved hugely since we were given the figures. We are talking about one-off costs tripling from £800,000 to £2.356 million, and recurring costs more than quintupling from £613,000 to £3.443 million. Would not it have made the Government’s life a lot easier if accurate figures had been presented at stage 1?

I hear what you have said about stage 2, but you cannot build a house on sand. If the figures are not accurate prior to stage 1, it just means that they will be even more inaccurate further down the line. Surely, given that the committee is quite tenacious in interrogating financial memorandums, it would have been a lot easier if, knowing that the figures that were going to be given on 26 March were not accurate, they had been updated prior to that date.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scotland’s Commissioner Landscape

Meeting date: 30 April 2024

Kenneth Gibson

That is quite common across the public sector, though. I am asking what it is about the commissioners or the office-holders that has meant that there has been such a significant increase in the current financial year compared to other organisations that are basically told, “This is your budget, make do and mend with that.”

Of course, some commissioners and commissions have been around for many years. I do not want to go into some of those questions at the minute because I am quite keen to get answers to the questions that I have. Why should the Scottish Parliament say, “We are going to have to restrict the amount that we give to front-line services because we do not have the money, but when it comes to the commissioners, we feel that it is okay to be much more generous.” That must make other organisations think, “How come they are getting between a 7 and 13.2 per cent increase in their budget and we are not?”

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scotland’s Commissioner Landscape

Meeting date: 30 April 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Yes.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scotland’s Commissioner Landscape

Meeting date: 30 April 2024

Kenneth Gibson

The issue for us—you might not feel it from where you are sitting—is that it almost seems as though you have been insulated, relatively speaking, from the really hard decisions that are being made by the public sector across the board, given that, as I said, the Government’s cash uplift was 2.6 per cent and the minimum uplift of the organisations before us is 7.4 per cent. I think that the NHS and local government and the police would also say, “Salaries are a huge chunk of what we do.” I think that we are all in that position.

Some commissions and commissioners have been around for many years. I think, and I think some of my colleagues will agree with me, that when an organisation is set up there is a head of steam, a mission to accomplish, and a lot of things that it wants to do initially. One thinks of a big burst and then settling almost into a steady state, perhaps. Maybe I have this wrong, but that is why, when there are big jumps in terms of budget you think, “Well, why is that happening?”

I understand from the Information Commissioner’s point of view that the number of FOI requests is going up all the time and there is a real issue about that. We do appreciate that, but in other areas one wonders. Have other colleagues anything that they want to say?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scotland’s Commissioner Landscape

Meeting date: 30 April 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Yes, indeed. One thing that all the written submissions have been very clear about is the roles that you all have. They are all really well written submissions, so I compliment you on that.

We had a private session with a colleague who talked about New Zealand and where all the overlaps are. We also looked at the UK and where the potential overlaps are there. There is a lot of concern about overlaps, and indeed gaps in Scotland. Is there any overlap between the two of you?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scotland’s Commissioner Landscape

Meeting date: 30 April 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Yes, indeed.

One thing that has been talked about a lot is the issue of overlaps and gaps. I will come to all of you, but I will first go back to you, Ian. Do you feel that we need a Standards Commission for Scotland and an Ethical Standards Commissioner? Is there not an overlap in the remits? Could the two be merged, for example?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scotland’s Commissioner Landscape

Meeting date: 30 April 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Lorna, David and Ian, do you agree with that?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scotland’s Commissioner Landscape

Meeting date: 30 April 2024

Kenneth Gibson

It is not going to be that bad—come on.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scotland’s Commissioner Landscape

Meeting date: 30 April 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Jan Savage, your executive summary says that a

“persistent lack of access to justice, at individual and systemic level, is the driving methodology behind the calls for the creation of new public bodies to address this.”

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scotland’s Commissioner Landscape

Meeting date: 30 April 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Nicola Killean, do you think that some of the organisations that are looking for new commissioners are looking for a magic bullet?