Skip to main content
Loading…

Seòmar agus comataidhean

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

Criathragan Hide all filters

Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 18 May 2025
Select which types of business to include


Select level of detail in results

Displaying 3259 contributions

|

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scotland’s Commissioner Landscape

Meeting date: 7 May 2024

Kenneth Gibson

I have four members who are keen to come in.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scotland’s Commissioner Landscape

Meeting date: 7 May 2024

Kenneth Gibson

We have been chatting for almost 75 minutes, and we have about 15 minutes left. I will let John Mason in in a minute. He is the only person who has indicated that he wants to come in. After that, I will ask each of our witnesses to think about what they would like to say as a final comment. Perhaps you could touch on an area that we have not covered so far, or you could re-emphasise an area that we already have. I will leave it completely up to you.

I will let Adam speak last, so that he can catch his breath, apart from anything else, and because he spoke first.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scotland’s Commissioner Landscape

Meeting date: 7 May 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Rob Holland, you made an interesting comment in your submission. Many of the submissions that the committee has received and much of the evidence that we have taken refer to concerns about the risk of duplication. However, in your submission, you said:

“Potential for overlaps in function is put forward as an argument against Commissioners being established. We would contend that overlap in function should not be seen as a problem, but rather the means of ensuring that individuals do not fall through a gap in ‘the system’.”

However, if there is duplication in the system, surely that confuses the issue and makes it difficult to deliver the outcomes that people require.

09:30  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 7 May 2024

Kenneth Gibson

It appears that the updated figures that the police gave you were accepted as read, and I am pretty sure that that was said by your officials in evidence. Rather than their saying to the police, “Hold on a second, how do you come to this sum and that sum?” it seems as if the police have said, “These are the updated figures,” and the bill team has said, “Okay, fair enough.” That is not usually what happens. Usually, whatever the bill is, people query the costings.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 7 May 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Earlier, when I asked a similar question, you gave a completely different answer, cabinet secretary.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scotland’s Commissioner Landscape

Meeting date: 7 May 2024

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you. Allan Faulds has been scribbling furiously over the past few minutes.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scotland’s Commissioner Landscape

Meeting date: 7 May 2024

Kenneth Gibson

I thank all our witnesses for their active participation in the discussion. We will continue our evidence sessions next week. Thank you very much for coming along. I also thank members of the committee for their involvement and contributions.

We will have a break until 10.30.

10:24 Meeting suspended.  

10:30 On resuming—  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 7 May 2024

Kenneth Gibson

The next item on our agenda is to take evidence from the Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs on the financial memorandum for the Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill. The cabinet secretary is joined by Scottish Government officials Donald McGillivray, who is director of safer communities, and Steven Bunch, who is the bill team leader.

I welcome you all to the meeting and invite the cabinet secretary to make a short opening statement.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 7 May 2024

Kenneth Gibson

One of the issues that we raised with the bill team was about the bill being a framework bill. The bill team said:

“The legislation is an enabling and framework bill, and a number of provisions will be set out in secondary legislation.”—[Official Report, Finance and Public Administration Committee, 26 March 2024; c 6.]

However, in your response to my letter, you said:

“I do not consider the Police Ethics etc Bill to be a framework bill. The Bill is an amending one”.

I wonder why there is that difference in view.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 7 May 2024

Kenneth Gibson

I am sorry, but it did, because nine months later it came to committee with all the additional information. That is why we are here today, because we were unable to scrutinise figures. I know that you do not like us to refer to other bills, but when other ministers and bill teams have come to us and it is clear that the financial memorandum bears no relationship to reality, they have gone away and redrafted it. Given that that has been the case, surely it would have been a lot simpler for the Government to decide that, because there has been a huge difference in the proportions and total sums involved in the bill, it should revise the financial memorandum before coming to the Finance and Public Administration Committee in March. There is no sense in coming to the committee with figures that are wrong, just because they were right nine months earlier.

You have said that stage 2 will not be until after October, so there will be a further difference between the figures in the financial memorandum that was presented in June last year and the figures that will apply in October this year. Surely, therefore, it is common sense to decide that, because the figures have completely changed, you will come to the Finance and Public Administration Committee with a revised financial memorandum. If that had happened, it is unlikely that you would even have had to give evidence today.