Seòmar agus comataidhean

Is that a legal question that you would like to come in on, Caroline?

The number that I gave was 130. I will check with the team that I am correct—it is 131.

That is a very good question. I ask Roz Thomson to respond to that. Roz, who is part of the team, has been very helpful in pulling this together.

I have looked at the reports that have been produced by different committees over the years, including those on the national performance framework and the Community Empowerment (Scotland) Act 2015. There are occasionally reviews in Parliament, but the legislation that we have at the moment is not delivering. The Finance and Public Administration Committee’s 2024 review of the national outcomes highlighted that we are not making the progress that we need to make. It also talked about the need for wellbeing and sustainable development legislation, which helped to push me forward.

There is a need to strengthen the legislation, because having a public duty pushes things up people’s agendas. If something is just seen as being nice to have, it will not happen. Some of the reports that have been produced show that we are not getting the reviews that we need. You mentioned the national performance framework and the national outcomes. It is striking that reviews of the national outcomes are done every five years—that is in the Community Empowerment (Scotland) Act 2015. The Scottish Parliament information centre blog shows the work that has been done, but we are not getting implementation on the national performance framework and the national outcomes.

We need to pull this together and push it up the agenda. Until we do that, we will not get the action that people agree that we need but which is not being implemented across public bodies and the Government.

I referred to the planetary boundaries in the policy memorandum. We certainly do not want to transgress environmental limits or planetary boundaries. That is a key part of sustainable development and collective wellbeing. I would be up for looking at that aspect in advance of stage 2, but I would not want to change the definition and get it wrong. We would have to get the definition right, and I thought that the way forward was to use the Brundtland definition and the past experience with regard to the sustainable development goals. As that definition is clearly—and internationally—understood, I do not think that there would be a challenge in that regard. The bill is intended to strengthen and accelerate our progress towards meeting the United Nations sustainable development goals. That is the overarching ambition.

I met the previous and current commissioners and it was really helpful to get their insights. The fact that the Welsh commissioner can produce policy guidance has been critical. Independent reports have shown that their work has changed the culture in public bodies in Wales and pushed wellbeing and sustainable development up the agenda. Lots of work has been done in Wales that we can learn from.

I am sure that you will come on to the discussions that you have had about shared knowledge and information. I remember that, in one of your evidence sessions, a witness spoke about the joined-up working in Wales and the fact that somebody from the Children’s Commissioner for Wales’s team worked for a short time in the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales’s team in order to share knowledge and best practice so that their work did not overlap, which is really important.

Another interesting thing is that those who are working on wellbeing and sustainable development in Wales have a body that pulls together organisations such as businesses, trade unions and public sector representatives, which enables them to ensure that the approach is coherent. It strengthens accountability and opens things up.

A concern was raised at a previous evidence session about overlap with existing organisations such as Environmental Standards Scotland. In Wales, interestingly, Natural Resources Wales sits on the statutory advisory committee. The joined-up approach to thinking brings stakeholders together, but also pushes the principles into the heart of Government. They work in partnership, and the reports to the Senedd’s Equality and Social Justice Committee and Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee have raised the profile of the commissioner, held them to account on their work and helped to move the Government and public bodies further ahead. There is public transparency, and those bodies know that, if progress is not being made, the Senedd committees and the commissioner will raise the issue up the agenda, which has been really helpful.

The commissioner partners and shares resources with the Welsh Language Commissioner and works with the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales, so the approach is much more joined up, even when it comes to considering how the commissioner works. That has been very successful, and there is good evidence in the reports that have been made to the Senedd, which Carnegie UK picked up on in its report on the commissioner’s work.

The bill certainly does not replicate what is already there. There is a degree of overlap between wellbeing and human rights, because both are about protecting and enhancing quality of life, but it does not duplicate existing equalities rights or enforcement mechanisms. I would argue that it complements existing rights.

The bill would require public bodies to take a broader, proactive approach to wellbeing and sustainable development in all their decisions, not just in areas where there are rights. That is important.

I mentioned earlier the interaction that we have seen working in Wales, where responsibilities intersect, and we can see that in Scotland, too. There are now ways of working together, such as through memorandums of understanding. To avoid duplication, we must ensure clarity. My expectation and hope is that that is exactly what we would do here. The guidance must not be repetitive; it must add value and take us to another stage.

I am not suggesting that. I am just saying that it was not raised as a big concern in the breadth of feedback that I received.

Yes.

Yes. That is why I said that we already have human rights protections, which the bill does not duplicate or attempt to change in any way. The bill has a broader definition.