Seòmar agus comataidhean

The issue is not at the top of my agenda. Joint working and collaboration are the way to move forward. If people think that I can strengthen the definition in some way, I am happy to look at that, but it was not the overarching issue that was raised in the evidence or stakeholder feedback when I introduced my bill.

We also have the Equality and Human Rights Commission, and we have rights embedded in law, but the bill brings a broader approach in terms of sustainable development and wellbeing. There are also the outcomes that are defined by the Scottish Government in the national performance framework. I think that there is scope for more discussion, and part of that is about collaborative work.

One of the things that I have recognised from the outset is the challenge of getting the definition perfect for now and for five or 10 years down the line. I wanted to have a focus on this so that we raised it up the agenda and enabled organisations to focus on it, too. The collaborative work is critical.

Is there another question that you would like to ask me?

No, my point is that we have to spend this resource if we are going to implement the bill’s ambitions. The SPCB-supported bodies landscape review very helpfully looked at, for example, the sharing of back-office resources, the location of commissioners and so on, and you could look at sharing back-office capacity for, say, human resources or finance. My point, though, is that we need new resource, and a focus on this issue.

My preference would be for there to be a new commissioner, with the title of future generations commissioner, to raise the issue up the agenda, provide the capacity to implement the legislation and make the change that we have all talked about for years but which has not happened. That would align with what is being done by the Scottish Government through the national performance framework, and it would help in terms of outcomes.

As I said, my strong preference is for there to be a commissioner, but the lesson of the work that has been done is that you can share resources. Experience in Wales shows that you can share back-office resources as well. However, we must invest in the area now, because, if we do not have that officer capacity and the powers of investigation, following on from the work on sharing best practice, advice and guidance and a consideration of the themes that are key priorities across the public sector, the ambitions of this legislation will not be fulfilled.

The commissioner would have to prioritise. They would not be able to do absolutely everything, every day of the week, but one of the points about having a commissioner is that they can prioritise. They would be able to take feedback from organisations that are looking for support, and the ability to have round-table discussions would raise matters up the agenda. Furthermore, as with other commissioners, members of the public would be able to write in and ask, “Are you aware of X, Y or Z?” The commissioner would not have to pick up every piece of correspondence, but they would be able to look at issues that have been raised.

The key thing is to have themes across public sector bodies. As we have said, there is a raft of such bodies, and the support provided could take the form of themes for different organisations and covering different topics. You could explore, say, different elements of sustainable development goals, or the fact that different types of public sector bodies would need different types of guidance. That sort of prioritisation would be a key issue for a future generations commissioner, just as it is for other organisations. How can a commissioner, an auditor and so on investigate everything all of the time? They have to prioritise, and that would be a key role of this commissioner.

Yes. The fact that the SPCB-supported bodies landscape review was being carried out at the same time meant that I had to focus quite carefully on the issue. I believe that it is important that we have a commissioner with this title, supported by staff with experience and knowledge.

• In your previous question, convener, you referred to the fact that there are more than 130 public authorities in Scotland, so what is proposed will mean adding a lot of work on to that of another commissioner. You would still have to resource that commissioner or some other public sector body to do the work that needs to be done if we are going to implement sustainable development goals and deliver the wellbeing aspects. Therefore, this approach is critical. If we are to deliver policy coherence and accountability, that will need investment and, as I have said, this is work that needs to be done.

There is one thing that I thought you might ask me about. You mentioned the Carnegie UK report and best practice from other countries. I have been quite focused on that so that we can learn from other countries. Scotland has led on things such as the climate emergency and legislation, but, with this bill, we are following other states. I went to a conference two and a half years ago at which there was a link to the Carnegie UK report about what the other opportunities are. I hope that the committee will look at what the choices are if we want to do what the bill proposes. Although I looked at the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales, I have also engaged with and looked at other experiences globally. I have been very conscious of the fact that I do not want us to be left behind on sustainable development and wellbeing ambitions.

We all know about the challenge of implementing the climate legislation. These are not simple things; they require advice, guidance and support. Australia and Norway are looking at what they can do on sustainable development and increasing accountability on wellbeing issues. The Italian Parliament is looking at embedding action. The Kenyan Senate is looking at a committee of the future. Norway, Denmark, Spain, Portugal and Ireland are all looking at joining up investment now to deliver for future generations. Cameroon has just appointed its first future generations commissioner, and the European Union has created its first intergenerational fairness commissioner. This is a live issue in other countries.

We have capacity issues in the Parliament, and there is an issue with investment—I totally get that in terms of the SPCB-supported bodies landscape review. I am looking forward to having discussions with the Scottish Government over the next few weeks. However, I am concerned that we are now towards the end of this parliamentary session, and I do not want us to kick this into touch. There will be a huge change in who is elected to the Parliament next time, and in future elections. I do not want the Parliament in the next session to have to start again on looking at what will happen next. This is an opportunity for us to legislate now and make the change that our constituents need.

I will end on that point, convener, because you are looking at me. I do not want to go beyond the time that you have allocated and cut across the opportunities to be constructive and positive.

I appreciate that, convener. The Welsh commissioner has been in place since the legislation there came into force. It is a seven-year term—the postholder does not change every time that there is an election.

I have had very constructive discussions with a variety of ministers in the Scottish Government. I think that we need somebody who is there full time, who is appointed and who is held to public account, because ministers and Governments come and go. We can have ambitions, but the key thing is to implement them, whether we agree with them or not, and to support the public sector to deliver on ambitions that are not nice to have but are absolutely critical for the wellbeing of our constituents now and that of future generations. That is tough, but the bill provides a solution that would help us, whichever party we represent, to implement ambitions that can transform people’s lives now and in the future.

I appreciate being invited to speak to the committee. I thank the non-Government bills unit, because, as an individual member of Parliament, you cannot do this without its support. It has been fantastic.

I thank the cabinet secretary for her comments about citizens assemblies. Is there an issue with getting the timing right? Would she support amending not the ambition of having citizens assemblies but the timing of having them, so that we could make it work? After all, involving people in the process will be critical to ensure that they understand the targets and can see how they are being pulled together.

This has been a really good debate on a series of incredibly well-intentioned amendments. The ambition to strengthen the bill is important, and I thank all the stakeholders who have been in touch and those who helped us to craft our amendments for today’s proceedings. The question is what the bill will actually deliver once it is passed at stage 3. Therefore, the detail is important, and I will certainly reflect on some of the amendments in this group in advance of stage 3.

The aim of amendment 103, which was supported by the RSPB, Open Seas and the Scottish Rewilding Alliance, was to clarify matters and to enable future Governments by giving them a clear rationale for subsequent target setting. The ambition was to ensure that future Scottish Governments could not take a narrow interpretation without giving wider consideration to the true ecological impact. Like Lorna Slater, I am happy to work with colleagues in advance of stage 3, but I want to be clear that that is the ambition—to make the Scottish Government’s drafting of the bill more effective.