Seòmar agus comataidhean

Yes. That is why I said that we already have human rights protections, which the bill does not duplicate or attempt to change in any way. The bill has a broader definition.

The number that I gave was 130. I will check with the team that I am correct—it is 131.

No, actually—I am hoping that it would be the opposite, because it would involve both support and guidance. Rather than repeating what is being done, this is about looking at what is not being done at the moment. I think that it would support organisations, and it would lead to a constructive relationship. That is certainly the experience in Wales—and I have already mentioned the culture change that has taken place in the decade since the commissioner there was appointed.

There would have to be respect between public authorities and a new commissioner, if they were to be established, just as there is respect when the Parliament holds public bodies to account. Of course, that does not mean that you do not ask difficult questions. I think that the combination of advice and guidance will support the proposed approach, with that backstop of the knowledge that an inquiry could be carried out. This is absolutely about empowering and supporting organisations to do what we would like them to do and what we have talked about as the ambition.

I just want to double-check whether any of my team wants to come in and add to that or say anything else. Have I said enough on that or is there anything helpful that I could say? Sean, do you want to come in?

Thank you, convener, and good morning to colleagues on the committee. As the member in charge of the Wellbeing and Sustainable Development (Scotland) Bill, I am looking forward to answering your questions.

The bill is about putting wellbeing and sustainable development at the heart of public sector decision-making. It seeks to create a clear legal framework to help public bodies to think long term, act sustainably and promote the wellbeing of current and future generations. Committee members will be aware that I feel passionately that we have to do more to further embed wellbeing and sustainable development as the key drivers that inform policies, decisions and actions that are taken across the public sector.

Scotland faces major challenges, and they are interconnected. They include the climate and nature emergencies, poverty and inequality, and they threaten the wellbeing of people today, including our constituents, and future generations. Too often, short-term priorities have driven decisions over long-term sustainability. That is understandable, but it has led to decades of decisions that harm the environment, entrench inequalities and will make the lives of future generations worse. To fix that problem, we need to embed wellbeing and sustainable development as core considerations in decision making in order to get policy coherence. We need to support public authorities to do that—to think long term, act sustainably and put wellbeing at the heart of their work.

Attempts by the Scottish Government to embed wellbeing and sustainable development at the heart of public sector decision making have not gone far enough. Committee members will recall that, before the last election, there were more than 150 organisations campaigning for us to put those ambitions into legislation. Without a clear legal framework, public bodies are left without the tools, the guidance or the accountability to make meaningful progress and deliver joined-up thinking. We need a different approach.

My bill does three things. It places a statutory duty on public bodies to have due regard to the need to promote wellbeing and sustainable development. It defines those terms in law, to provide clarity and consistency. I am conscious that, over the years, we have had numerous references to sustainable development in law, but we do not have a definition of it. Finally, my bill establishes an independent future generations commissioner, drawing on the successful Welsh model, to provide guidance, share best practice and hold public bodies to account.

Public bodies face real challenges and pressures, and that is why the commissioner’s role is not only about oversight, but about support. That is critical. The commissioner would help public bodies to meet their responsibilities and improve outcomes over time. There is a challenge in that Governments and Parliaments change too often for us to get that consistent focus on long-term issues. That makes it even more challenging to tackle those issues. I have been looking at different pieces of legislation, reviews and reports that have been produced over the time of our Parliament, and we do not have that consistent, joined-up thinking and accountability. That makes it even more challenging to tackle the issues that are in front of us, and stakeholders with deep expertise in the area have made it clear that we need to do more. It is not just a campaigning issue; it is an issue of policy coherence, joined-up thinking and action.

I worry that, without an independent body to offer continuous and dedicated oversight, Scotland will continue to fall behind on the United Nations sustainable development goals and we will see a cycle of short-term fixes. The bill is a chance to change that.

I have found it constructive to hear the questions that the committee has asked and the discussions that you have had thus far. I thank all those who have given evidence in Parliament or provided written evidence for their helpful insights. I have been reflecting on the issues that have been raised and I look forward to discussing them with the committee this morning.

Having looked at the frameworks that are in place, I am very conscious that I want to get that joined-up thinking, which has not happened thus far. It is not about a lack of ambition or support—it has just not been happening, and the challenge lies in being able to deliver it.

The national performance framework was introduced in 2007. There are regular thoughts about the issues in Parliament, but they are not joined up. We need both policy coherence and accountability. It has been interesting to look at how other legislatures across the world are joining up their decision making and holding organisations to account. The key is to have support, policy guidance and a backstop that says that this is a duty and we need to be doing it now.

Those issues go together. The issue of how we ensure that the principles of the bill and the public duty are actually delivered is critical, so that question is important.

Some people think that the “have due regard” wording is not sufficiently strong. However, if we look at the framing of the duty, we see that it is based on the public sector equality duty, which has been very impactful since it was introduced in 2010. It is not a new framing—it is something that public sector organisations are well experienced in doing. It is about ensuring that, when guidance on sustainable development principles is produced, organisations are accountable for making the principles deliverable. That is the critical point. We all love the principles of sustainable development, but there is currently a critical gap in terms of implementing them.

Having evidence from the commissioner will be important, so that aspect is critical.

I will let Caroline Mair come in on that.

That report highlights that the joined-up thinking and support for organisations have been critical and have started to change outcomes. I can give some practical examples of where there has been change. A new hospital was being built in Swansea, and the then Future Generations Commissioner for Wales asked what was being done about environmental impact. The response was, “We’re NHS Wales—that’s not our job.” The commissioner pushed hard on the matter, and a solar farm was built at the hospital that generates £1 million a year, which goes straight into NHS Wales.

Another practical example is the metro work that has been done in Wales. That has made significant changes to public transport, with increased passenger use, and it too was a direct result of the work of the commissioner. The approach has also involved reducing fares in areas of deprivation.

I am not saying that those things are happening everywhere or that such initiatives account for every single change that has been made, but those are practical examples of policy changes that have been made as a result of the commissioner’s reports and engagement with significant public sector bodies in Wales. The public sector investment that is being made now will deliver both short-term and longer-term benefits to people in Wales.

I absolutely believe that we need to have both legislative change and the commissioner in place to push that forward. It is partly a matter of raising awareness across the public sector. There are lots of pressures, and people have to make short-term decisions. That is a reality of public sector life. The important thing is to push wellbeing and sustainable development up the agenda and share best practice.

Some excellent work is being done in different areas of Scotland, but it has not been replicated. You mentioned the excellent work that has been done in North Ayrshire, and I note that Aberdeen Heat & Power has existed for more than 20 years. There are some really good organisations. However, there is also risk. A commissioner would help public sector organisations to avoid taking risky decisions that could result in bad outcomes. Given the risk-averse nature of decision making, we need to share both best practice for what works and challenges that need to be overcome. That is really important.

Having a clear public duty pushes wellbeing and sustainable development up the agenda, and having definitions puts them centre stage. That approach means that, when public sector organisations make decisions—when a new building is being planned or new infrastructure is being put in place—wellbeing and sustainable development can be on the agenda. That is not the case at the moment. It is a question of building on and sharing best practice and enabling public sector organisations across the country to deliver wellbeing and sustainable development. The critical change is to have the definitions, the duty and the advice and guidance.

The evidence has been fascinating to me. I got permission to introduce my bill when there was enough support from colleagues, and that was when the Scottish Government announced its bill on wellbeing and sustainable development. I have been looking at the issue because the Government is now talking about reviewing the national performance framework, but that will not happen until next year and it will be a long time before we see the proposals. A potential piece of legislation is before you that could address those issues.

I am keen that we get that joined-up thinking. We are looking at NPF reform in early 2026, but we will then go into an election and we will have new ministers and people will move on. Retaining on-going and consistent oversight and accountability is a real issue. The wellbeing and sustainable development principles in the bill would assist the national performance framework—I am also thinking about the wellbeing outcomes—because they totally complement each other. The bill pushes all those things up the agenda. We should not keep delaying.

I reiterate that there was huge push for such a bill before the 2021 election. We are now at the end of 2025, so we need to get on with it. Passing the bill would support the Government’s ambitions and mean that more of the focus was on implementation rather than just targets, which is critical.