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Thank you. You all think that the law is clear.

Michele Burman made an important point about who goes out to visit when a crime is reported. Amanda Masson, at what stage in the process would you start to gather the relevant information to show that there was coercive behaviour? Is it maybe more practical that the initial report is done by the police, with someone then needing to look at it? I imagine that you need to gather evidence or you will fail in court. At the end of the day, the accused will not be convicted unless the crime can be proved, which requires substantial evidence. Where in the process does it make sense to gather the relevant evidence on, for example, the victim feeling fear and alarm over a long time and not being free to make decisions in the relationship? I presume that that is what you are looking for. All those things need to be proved.

Where in the process would it make sense for someone to gather that information for the court?

Theoretically, then, it could cover, say, shoplifting.

I want to start by wishing everyone a happy international women’s day.

I was not involved in it at the time, but I am fully aware of the significance of the legislation that Scotland passed. Indeed, it was identified as world leading, and we are proud of that aspect of it.

That said, I am not really familiar with the detail. What I want to get into is how we can fix the situation, which Amanda Masson finished off with, where clients are reluctant even to raise the question. Moreover, how can we do better at creating the understanding that is needed and proving these cases in court?

I guess that, when we as legislators pass legislation, we think about what we would like and then the agencies have to work out the practicalities on the ground. I am sympathetic to Police Scotland in that regard. I do not know what guidance it was given or what the act says about what it should be looking for when it sees something that might be regarded as coercive behaviour or psychological damage to a woman or, indeed, a man.

What should the police look for? Is the act clear about what needs to be shown before they hand the case over to the Crown Office to make the final decision on it? I would welcome anything that the witnesses could tell me. Is the act clear enough? If it is not, what do we need to do around providing the relevant evidence or creating understanding of those provisions?

Thanks for that. I was not suggesting that. I totally accept that we need our front line.

Moira Price, to follow on, does coercive behaviour tend to go along with physical abuse? Are there any patterns, or is it a stand-alone crime? I am trying to visualise that behaviour in the context of what Sam Faulds said. Obviously, it can be a stand-alone crime. That is the point of the act. Coercive behaviour can be a course of conduct over a long period. It is not physical abuse but mental abuse.

It is just my perception, but I would not have thought that someone would lift the phone and say, “I think that there’s been a crime of coercive control against me.” I am trying to visualise how coercive behaviour would be captured. Does it tend to coincide with physical abuse? If you could help me on that, that would be helpful.

Do they simply report it like any other crime?

Yes—I thought that that was what you had said. I am trying to work it out. Where there is no violence, how can you possibly pick up cases of coercive control? You have mentioned that there have been a couple of cases already, and that the judgment has endorsed the Crown’s approach, which is good. How would those be picked up, if there is no physical abuse? I am really struggling to see how they would get into the system.

Good afternoon. I thank the witnesses for their evidence so far—I have found it helpful, in particular Moira Price’s responses to Katy Clark‘s question on coercive behaviour. I want to get Sam Fauld’s view on it as well, so I put my question, which follows on from that, to her.

We heard in evidence from the previous panel that it tends to be tier 1 officers rather than more specialist officers who are trained to identify abuse who respond to domestic violence abuse cases, because the tier 1 officers are on the front line.

I am particularly interested in the coercive behaviour side of things. By the very nature of that crime, I imagine that it is always going to be difficult to identify it or to provide evidence on such a course of conduct. Do you have anything to offer the committee on how coercive behaviour can be better identified on the front line?

To be honest, from what you have illustrated, I do not see how things will change. Is there no one else to call when a person is identified as being in acute mental health distress? In circumstances in which the powers under section 297 would be used, who else would be contacted?

What service should people be referred to?

Good morning, Professor McKay. You have been involved in excellent work, so thank you very much for that. My questions follow on from the questions that the convener and Jamie Greene asked, because I am having difficulty visualising what the system might look like—forgive me for returning to a subject that we have covered.

As Jamie Greene said, we have heard from those in the police service that they work 24/7 and have a responsibility to keep people safe, so they have a duty to come out when they are called. Realistically, how is that going to change? Who would take the place of the police in a different system, and where would people be taken to if they were not taken to A and E?

I have been in forensic units, so I am familiar with those, and I used to represent mental health nurses, so I have a bit of knowledge about that. I am thinking about whether we have the places; we might have shut down too many places when we did the big reforms in the early 1990s. I am trying to visualise what the change will look like.

If mental health nurses took over, would they need to change their working patterns and be given new restraint powers? The circumstances might be difficult, and the police are called because they have those powers. Clearly, we want to avoid taking people to A and E. Anything that you can say to help me to visualise what will happen would be useful.