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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 1 December 2025
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Displaying 1438 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 December 2023

Pauline McNeill

Do you think that it would be a good use of the Parliament’s time to take through the necessary legislation to allow for research such as that done by Cheryl Thomas?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 December 2023

Pauline McNeill

My final question is about the numbers on the jury if the not proven verdict were to be removed. The profession would prefer a unanimous jury but would accept, as in England, a majority of 10 to two. I understand that your fundamental position is to retain the not proven verdict. Ronnie Renucci, can you talk the committee through what, you think, the Crown would have to show in order to get a conviction? To a layperson, you are saying that the jury is required to have a unanimous verdict before you could convict, and that sounds like it would be really difficult to get a conviction, whereas a majority of 10 to two seems to allow for it. However, of course, we do not understand how juries operate or the proceedings of a court.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 December 2023

Pauline McNeill

That is helpful. Finally, given the hundreds of cases that you have—

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 December 2023

Pauline McNeill

I understand most of it, but I just want to clarify that, as the proposals stand—not for the other suggestion—it is still the Crown’s position that there should be the option of a retrial under the Government’s proposal for a majority of eight to four. Would you still argue for that?

12:00  

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 December 2023

Pauline McNeill

That is in your seven to five scenario.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 December 2023

Pauline McNeill

Good morning. Have you any comment to make on some of the evidence that we have heard on the use of not proven in rape cases? I am trying to understand this. There is the use of not proven in not guilty verdicts in rape cases, and then there is the comparison with other crimes, which, I imagine, will look different. Is there anything that you can tell the committee from your experience or practice about the use of not proven in rape cases? Do you have any concern that it is used too often, or do you have no concerns at all?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 December 2023

Pauline McNeill

Finally, your submission suggests that, if there were an increase in the majority that is required for a jury to convict, consideration should be given to the prosecution being able to seek a retrial where the higher majority is not reached. Is that your policy position? In other words, are you arguing for that anyway? Why would you not argue for having a retrial policy in the current verdict system? How radical a suggestion is that? From a layperson’s reading, it seems quite radical to introduce that question. While we have been debating the three verdicts and the majorities, you have thrown into the mix the idea that there should be scope for a retrial. I have absolutely no idea how radical that is. If you could speak to that, that would be great.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 December 2023

Pauline McNeill

Thank you. Stuart Murray, you had an exchange with Katy Clark about the research that the Government is relying on. The policy memorandum is quite clear that the evidence used for removing the verdict is the research involving 900 mock jurors. Do you think that the Government would be taken more seriously on that research if we addressed the question of the Contempt of Court Act 1981 and, perhaps, as a part of this bill, legislated to allow research to be done on juries and trends in juries and how they come to their decisions?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 December 2023

Pauline McNeill

Thank you. My final set of questions is for Ronnie Renucci. You have probably seen some of the exchanges in the Official Report of this committee in relation to the three verdicts, including last week’s evidence from Joe Duffy and Rape Crisis Scotland. In your opening remarks, you talked about what the Crown had to prove. Do you think that there has been enough discussion about how the judge charges the jury, if you like? Rather than debating the cold, clinical aspects of removing a verdict, would it be more useful to discuss what the jury is actually asked to do when it is deciding on a conviction?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 13 December 2023

Pauline McNeill

But that is what the provisions are.