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It would help the quality of the evidence, because you would have more of a say.

That is really helpful. The incredible evidence that we have had—I thank all of you—from victims and survivors, has persuaded me that a lot of the changes that are required are not legislative but are about the system itself.

I suppose that it goes back to Emma Bryson’s points. I am going to have to give some thought in my mind to how we can get such a change.

Other members have asked about how victims can get more of a say in their own cases and how they get access to advocate deputes. My very scant knowledge tells me that the issue might be cultural, in that for many years ADs were trained in such a way that they were told, “You are the prosecutor; it’s your job to act in the public interest—you’re not representing the victim.” That is very much how they have been trained, but what we are hearing is that that does not really help the conduct of trials. There is a lot of thinking to be done around that.

Sandy Brindley has made the case with regard to conduct, but to me, there is a separate issue about changing the culture. That might be something of a resource issue, too, because it would require more time. Are those changes as important as—or, indeed, more important than—the changes in the legislation?

Do you want to go first, Sandy?

As Ellie said, you are an outsider—what we have heard bears that out.

I have a separate question for you, Jennifer. We have talked a lot about rape myths, so I have thought about what that means to me. However, you have added something else that is really important, which is other myths that I have never thought about. You said that you were expected to break down in court, and Hannah said that she had to fight not to have a screen. I wonder whether we need to look at those elements when deciding what a trauma-informed approach looks like and what proving a case looks like.

You will know that the law on proving rape has changed over the years. You used to have to show distress, because juries wanted to see visible distress in order to believe the victim. You do not need to prove that any more, but the two points that you made are really important. If a jury expects you to break down, because that is their myth, but you do not break down, perhaps you are less believable.

On whether you have a screen, I wonder whether that is another myth, whereby juries think that, if you do not give evidence behind a screen and you are able to face your accuser, perhaps you are not to be believed. Are those important aspects of taking a trauma-informed approach and proving a case that we should now draw out?

That is helpful. Jennifer has spoken about the right to choose. If you want to hear the trial, there should be a way of allowing for that that you would feel comfortable with.

I was going to ask about that issue, so I will carry on where Rona Mackay left off.

Emma Bryson spoke about the difference between theory and practice and asked what the practice will be. What will the law be? What is it that we are legislating for? That is what I am thinking about. I was quite persuaded by Lady Dorrian’s evidence last week and her report on the specialist court, which she envisages as being a branch of the High Court. I am mystified by some of the changes that the Government made when it went from the report stage to the bill stage, and that is what I want to ask you about.

Sandy Brindley, as you rightly said, the sexual offences court will be a national jurisdiction court that will have sentencing powers, but what is missing is that the rights of audience will not be the same as those in the High Court. You also said that in your submission. For that reason, my view is that the specialist court will not be the same as the High Court unless that issue is resolved.

I draw attention to a point that I made to Lady Dorrian. Do not quote me on the year because I have no idea, but when we extended the sentencing powers of the sheriff court, Lord Bonomy made the same point about floating trials as he did about the right of an accused person—who, before we extended the powers, would have been tried in the High Court—to have rights of audience of more senior counsel. It is now impossible to get senior counsel approved by the Scottish Legal Aid Board. It strikes me that we need to ask SLAB what its view of that is. If the right is not enshrined in law, I am absolutely certain that the whole area will become murky. In my view, the distinction in law is that rape and murder can go only to the High Court, and everything flows from that.

Sandy, from your submission, I think that you share my concerns that we need to persuade the Government that, if we do not sort out the issue, the specialist court could not really be what Lady Dorrian envisaged it being.

The reason for the lack of certainty in the floating trial system is that they want to try to push as many cases as possible. If there is a spare court, they want a window of time to let a trial proceed. With a fixed trial diet, the case has to start on that date, so courts might be lying vacant. If a high volume of cases is then going to the specialist court, I am not sure that we can deliver certainty.

Thank you. Do you wish to respond, Marsha?

Good morning, panel, and thank you very much for your evidence so far. It is very persuasive with regard to whether—perhaps John Swinney was getting to this point—the changes that we need to make are structural.

As legislators, we are being asked to look at structural changes, such as changing the nature of the court and abolishing the not proven verdict, which you might be in favour of. However, what I hear from you all, time and again, is that it is about the treatment that you experience in court and the exclusion from the system that you feel. In the system that has grown up, you are not seen as part of the public interest. As Anisha Yaseen said, you do not even have the right to call certain people—that is very common—but when you are needed, you have to be there.

I am thinking deeply about the extent to which the changes that need to happen centre around what we can do to fundamentally change the system, which is culturally broken for a lot of victims. Like John Swinney, I have asked about the role of the advocate depute. In my mind, their role is really important.

Sarah Ashby spoke very eloquently. Your positive experience seems to be fundamental to how you feel and perhaps in relation to how you feel about the court trial itself. However, I have heard of cases in which people who have been accused of crimes have felt the same way as other witnesses: they consider that a question that they felt was fundamental to their trial was not asked, and I do not think that that feeling would be exclusive to them. I suppose that the balance that we need to strike is the extent to which people should have access to the advocate depute in order to have a voice.

There are two elements to that. The first element is when the trial is being conducted. Hannah Stakes mentioned not being able to ask why an argument had not been made. The second element is when people are in the witness box. I have heard other witnesses say, “I never got to tell my story” or, “You didn’t ask me that question.” Hannah McLaughlan said earlier that she wanted someone to throw her a “lifeline”. Those seem to be common experiences.

Given all that, do you agree that the priorities for legislators, or people who are in charge of the system, should be centred around making changes of that kind, to those elements, rather than on making structural changes? That is not to say that structural changes are not important. What do you think about that?

Thanks for that. This is my final question. The proposal to have a specialist court was mentioned earlier. Lady Dorrian recommended that such a court be part of the High Court, but that is not what is in the bill. I am not too clear in my mind what that court would be. It would have national jurisdiction, and we know that it would be trauma informed—there are a lot of important aspects to that—but it will not be part of the High Court. That means that it would not necessarily be the same lawyers, and sheriffs could sit as judges, but perhaps that does not matter. Those are the things that we as a committee must consider.

Sarah Ashby spoke strongly in relation to the importance of the High Court. Rape trials can be conducted only in the High Court, and some sexual offences go to the High Court or to the sheriff court, depending on the severity. If you have a view on that, that would be great to hear.

Good morning, and thank you for giving us your time. I have heard some of your evidence before and some of it has really stuck with me. There are two issues in particular that I want to come back on.

What all of you—and other survivors—have said about not being able to tell your story about what happened to you, because of the court process, really resonates with me.

Ellie, you talked about advocate deputes prosecuting cases, and others have said the same. We will hear from someone on the next panel who had a more positive experience, when they had the chance to sit down with the advocate depute. I think that you also spoke about this issue, Hannah. I have heard so many times about the frustration of having to listen to the case being put when what you think is crucial to your case is not put before the court. Hannah, you talked about feeling that you needed to be thrown a lifeline because of that.

Aside from obvious failings in the system, the apparent reason for that is that the role of the prosecutor is to prosecute “in the public interest”. That term keeps the victim out of it. It strikes me that that is part of what needs to change. I have been really interested in advocacy and the right of victims to have an independent advocate, but I am now more interested in the right of the victim to have conversations before and during the trial with advocate deputes. That practice is not that common, but it does happen. Would each of you like to say how important you think that that would have been in your particular case? Ellie, would you like to answer first?