Skip to main content
Loading…

Seòmar agus comataidhean

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

Criathragan Hide all filters

Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 30 July 2025
Select which types of business to include


Select level of detail in results

Displaying 1264 contributions

|

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Substance Misuse in Prisons

Meeting date: 28 May 2025

Pauline McNeill

Thank you.

I have spoken to many families, including a couple of families of people who have died in custody, who have said that their loved one was not a drug user and did not have a drug addiction before they went into prison. The committee has raised concerns about this many times. We know about the really hard job that you have in maintaining order in prisons when they are overcrowded, but some prisoners are spending 23 hours in a cell. That must have an impact on their mental health. They are not doing recreational activities, for example. What is leading to drug use by those prisoners and are you dealing with them in specific ways, or is it all the same strategy? What Kirsten Horsburgh is describing is the situation in relation to people who were drug users in the community, who offended as a result and ended up in jail. However, there is still a significant proportion of prisoners—you can correct me on the figure, but I think that the survey shows that it is about 17 per cent—who were not drug users when they went into jail.

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Substance Misuse in Prisons

Meeting date: 28 May 2025

Pauline McNeill

So, if you see someone who has been locked up in a cell—or, in Barlinnie, doubled up in a cell—and who might be at risk, do you identify them as such? Obviously, a significant number of prisoners are at risk, which could be for a variety of reasons.

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Non-fatal Strangulation

Meeting date: 21 May 2025

Pauline McNeill

Thank you—that is really helpful.

There is a conundrum around the context of domestic violence. I mentioned earlier a survey that found that

“Over a third ... of 16-34 years reported being strangled/choked at least once during consensual sex”.

Half of those young people said that they had consented to that. We have to assume from that that the context is not domestic violence. That gives me cause for concern. I suppose that, technically, both of the people who are involved in the consensual sex act would already be breaking the law, because you do not have to show injury or harm.

Would you agree that, before we consider any changes to the law, a great deal of thought should be given to public awareness, not just about the impact of strangulation, which a lot of people might not be aware of, but about whether they are potentially breaking the law? Do you have any other thoughts on how we should deal with that?

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Non-fatal Strangulation

Meeting date: 21 May 2025

Pauline McNeill

I was first alerted to this issue at a cross-party evening meeting. Some of the other committee members were also in attendance. I learned things that I knew nothing about. Professor White, you talked about the physical impact. I remember a statistic that I heard that night: after six seconds of strangulation, a person can lose control, become incontinent and experience lots of other physical issues, which can be permanent. You have mentioned lots of other physical issues. It is serious.

I want to ask you about something that concerns me. Both Fionas have outlined the impact that strangulation has on victims, and Fiona McMullen mentioned it being a red flag for domestic abuse. More alarming to me is that it was found in a recent survey that

“Over a third ... of 16-34 years reported being strangled/choked at least once during consensual sex”

and that half of those young people said they had consented to it. All the data from that age group is showing that they do not see themselves as victims, because it has been consensual. I think that 27 per cent said that it was “sometimes agreed” in advance.

That means that there is another dimension to the issue. As you will know, in Scots law, you cannot consent to an assault. If there is an assault, whether there is consent, it is against the law. Is there anything that you would like to tell the committee about that? Are we dealing with a wider issue? That is not exclusive to that age group. We have much smaller figures for the 55-plus age group, but it is happening there, too. Do you agree that we have a wider problem?

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Non-fatal Strangulation

Meeting date: 21 May 2025

Pauline McNeill

Yes. It is the central question for lawmakers, which is why I have to think about it. Dr Forbes, you talked about getting this right. That is really important. As I said earlier, unless we have common law flexibility, rather than a statutory offence, the problem is about how to make a distinction between the domestic violence context and what we have been hearing about formal agreements between couples—consent between couples—on something that can cause harm. That will be a really tricky area of law. We have also heard about the English position, where consent in the law has led to fewer prosecutions. The Northern Ireland example is also quite interesting. There is a lot to think about.

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Non-fatal Strangulation

Meeting date: 21 May 2025

Pauline McNeill

Liliana, I know that you will be interested in the legal point around consent. Do you want to add to that?

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Non-fatal Strangulation

Meeting date: 21 May 2025

Pauline McNeill

Detective Superintendent Fisher, do you know whether the Northern Irish legislation deals with the question of consent in the same way as the English legislation?

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Non-fatal Strangulation

Meeting date: 21 May 2025

Pauline McNeill

Good morning. Dr Forbes explained that very well, so I understand the dilemma. There might be some public awareness-raising around a new offence, but you want to get prosecutions and make sure that, if you prosecute, you get convictions, so the content of the law is really important.

We have read in our papers that section 70 of the Domestic Abuse Act 2021 in England and Wales amended section 75A of the Serious Crime Act 2015 to set out a specific offence. It includes a defence for consensual strangulation and states:

“It is a defence ... for A to show that B consented to the strangulation or other act.”

Obviously, that section also has a caveat about recklessness.

Dr Forbes, if consent is not a defence to assault, as was recently confirmed in the case of Kirkup v His Majesty’s Advocate—and, previously, in the case of Smart v HMA—does that seem odd to you, or would it not really work like that in Scotland? If we were to legislate in the same way, what would that mean for the issue of consent?

11:45  

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Non-fatal Strangulation

Meeting date: 21 May 2025

Pauline McNeill

Yes.

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Non-fatal Strangulation

Meeting date: 21 May 2025

Pauline McNeill

Thank you. I will explore that issue further. Any anecdotal evidence would suggest that it is not even specific to men or women, but I have not seen the data for that. I agree with Fiona Drouet that a deeper issue is the impact of pornography, but I am not certain that it is gender specific; I just do not know. Even though women are agreeing to it, we do not know why they think that it is okay. I am clear that public awareness is really important, and I thank you for the work that you have done on it.

I turn to the question of legislation, which Liam Kerr also asked about. It seems to me, from a cursory look at the English legislation, that it is flawed. If there is a defence of consent, one can see that the cases will fall. I would have thought that it would be more important, initially, to do a lot of high-profile campaigning around the idea that, whether or not someone consents, harm is caused. Putting to one side whether you think that strangulation should be a stand-alone offence, it is currently against the law, but clearly many people do not think that it already is.

I see flaws in the English legislation, and I wonder if you agree. If we were going to create a new offence, before we made any decisions about passing a law, we would have to deal with people who think that it is currently lawful to do it. Anything that you want to say in response is fine.