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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 7 June 2025
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Displaying 1213 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Criminal Justice Modernisation and Abusive Domestic Behaviour Reviews (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 February 2025

Pauline McNeill

Thank you very much. That was helpful.

I want to ask about the costs, but perhaps you cannot answer this question. I think that Liam Kerr tried to get an answer from you about it.

You said in the letter to the Finance and Public Administration Committee that £4.2 billion is being invested across the criminal justice system, but I am interested in what amount of that £4.2 billion is being allocated for modernisation. Most witnesses who believe that this is a good thing will still say that it cannot really do what it is supposed to do unless there is some investment in the technology. I believe that a sheriff court went down yesterday, because the connection was so poor. Indeed, I have seen it myself—it happens all the time.

We have seen this before with promises that we will be able to work out the costs once the legislation is passed. However, I have concerns about passing laws that substantially overturn existing practices without knowing what the Government will spend. Even the police are saying that they would love to have the flexibility of not physically having to attend court but, under the current arrangement, that is not practical. The Government needs to give us an answer on what investment it will make and how quickly it can make it.

Criminal Justice Committee

Criminal Justice Modernisation and Abusive Domestic Behaviour Reviews (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 February 2025

Pauline McNeill

I totally understand that. Obviously, you have to start somewhere. Notwithstanding what you might say about its being a matter for the courts, though, surely it is still a matter for you, as cabinet secretary, to be satisfied that the courts, using the powers that you will give them, are rolling out the virtual system at the point at which everyone feels content that it is the quality that it should be.

Criminal Justice Committee

Criminal Justice Modernisation and Abusive Domestic Behaviour Reviews (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 February 2025

Pauline McNeill

Right. It is important to get that on the record, as you said, cabinet secretary. I am sure that you agree that there is a balance to be struck between the operational matters and a fair legal framework, in which the default position is physical appearance but virtual appearance is allowed when the case can be made for it.

On the specified locations, I have a similar line of questioning to Liam Kerr’s. Does the bill specify requirements in relation to setting? Does the appearance have to be from a specific approved place?

Criminal Justice Committee

Criminal Justice Modernisation and Abusive Domestic Behaviour Reviews (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 February 2025

Pauline McNeill

My next questions are the same as those that I put to the Scottish Criminal Bar Association and relate to the subsections of the bill that deal with how far the approach can go after the first appearance. When I raised the issue with the association, its position was that, on the face of it, the bill will allow the court to go much further than a custody hearing.

I will tell you what my concerns are in that respect. If we take the bill as a whole—that is, the national jurisdiction elements, with sheriffs being able to sit anywhere, virtual attendance and that provision, which, as I understand it, means that the approach can go well beyond the first appearance—does it give the court system an awful lot of power to determine many things beyond the first appearance? I had thought that, in the way that it was presented, the bill would apply only to certain hearings, but the provision seems to allow things to go much further, if the court thinks fit. That gives me cause for concern.

I accept the cabinet secretary’s point about letting the Scottish Courts and Tribunals Service run the courts, but there are principles of fairness and established things such as jurisdiction, where people are tried and so on that could be overturned. First of all, though, can you tell me whether the bill does that?

Criminal Justice Committee

Criminal Justice Modernisation and Abusive Domestic Behaviour Reviews (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 5 February 2025

Pauline McNeill

Thank you.

Criminal Justice Committee

Criminal Justice Modernisation and Abusive Domestic Behaviour Reviews (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 5 February 2025

Pauline McNeill

Yes—thank you, convener. It is a question for Katie Brown. I thank you for introducing to the conversation the importance of effecting change. I just want to understand the funding for equally safe. Is there national funding for the programme? I know that it is not rolled out in every school, as we would hope.

To be clear, as you mentioned it, is the bill the right place in which to address the finances of all programmes like equally safe?

Criminal Justice Committee

Criminal Justice Modernisation and Abusive Domestic Behaviour Reviews (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 5 February 2025

Pauline McNeill

No. I just raised that because Katie Brown mentioned it in her opening statement. She also mentioned the financial memorandum. My only other question is a yes or no supplementary. Does the funding have to be addressed in the financial memorandum?

Criminal Justice Committee

Criminal Justice Modernisation and Abusive Domestic Behaviour Reviews (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 January 2025

Pauline McNeill

I agree.

Criminal Justice Committee

Criminal Justice Modernisation and Abusive Domestic Behaviour Reviews (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 January 2025

Pauline McNeill

Is that intended for public officials?

Criminal Justice Committee

Criminal Justice Modernisation and Abusive Domestic Behaviour Reviews (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 January 2025

Pauline McNeill

As a parliamentarian, I am asking you to persuade me to pass this particular provision. What can you tell me about the conditions? I would not be happy if I did not know that both the Crown and the courts system would have a specific place or a designated set of circumstances. Without that, how can I possibly be satisfied that a trial will be fair? Do you see what I mean?