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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 13 November 2025
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Displaying 1434 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 21 February 2024

Christine Grahame

I will come to that. First, I should possibly have stated my registered interests. I am a member of the Scottish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals and a patron of the Edinburgh Dog and Cat Home. Nonetheless, I assure you, minister, that I come to the matter with—I hope—an objective mind.

Which organisations have opposed the provisions that are coming in? Could you list them, minister?

Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 21 February 2024

Christine Grahame

No—I am asking specifically about the provisions. I know about those other meetings.

Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 21 February 2024

Christine Grahame

Is it not a basic principle of law that it should be clear and understood and not confused?

Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 21 February 2024

Christine Grahame

I am not surprised that the motion to annul is not going to be agreed to. I know that there is unhappiness round the table, and there is a breathing space before the next statutory instrument—the big bad one—comes along, which might allow us to put something else in place. I know that the committee has been under pressure with the threat of dogs being brought up, but there may be a pause during which we can consider not proceeding to the second part. I just lay down that point without notice.

I thank members for their contributions. As I say, my passion is about legislation. I cannae help it—ye cannae take the lawyer out of me, and Katy Clark is in the same boat, as is Pauline McNeill. You cannot help yourself. I appreciate where the committee is, but what has been put on the record today is extremely important. I hope that, when we come to the next statutory instrument, we might be able to do something else. That is all that I will say.

Thank you very much for your tolerance—and I will just add that I like being patronised.

Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 21 February 2024

Christine Grahame

I asked about the efficacy of the 1991 act.

Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 21 February 2024

Christine Grahame

We are considering some of the consequences of the new law in England now. You mentioned 200 dogs, which were put down. That is, some 200 dogs in England were put down by their owners, and they get money from the Government to do that. What is the BVA’s position on that? What are vets’ positions on it? Vets do not like putting down healthy dogs.

Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 21 February 2024

Christine Grahame

I am interested in the committee’s questions. We have had to ask questions because the law itself is just a complete mess.

Minister, you talked about a loophole. I have taken on board what you said about the processes that were undertaken with the UK Government. Had there not been issues with so-called “dumping”—I put the term in quote marks because I do not like it—of XL bully-type dogs in Scotland, would you have proceeded to take a good look, as I have asked for frequently, at the Control of Dogs (Scotland) Act 2010, which I authored, to see whether it could be tightened up even more? I refer in particular—I hope that the committee is aware of this—to section 9 of the act, which is entitled “Dangerous or unresponsive dogs”. That section applies in the home; as you have rightly said, dog attacks also happen in the home. However, the order that has been made on the basis of the UK Government’s legislation will, if it is agreed to today, not apply in the home.

Section 9 of the 2010 act applies where an authorised officer takes the view that issuing a dog control notice would not be suitable. The case would have to go to court to let it decide whether the dog in question may or may not have to be put down or whether some other action should be taken. Section 9 also gives the owner the right of appeal, and it applies to any dog.

If there was any issue in Scotland with bully XLs, would it not have been suitable to use section 9 of the 2010 act, had your position not been that there were concerns about an excess of dogs coming up to Scotland?

Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 21 February 2024

Christine Grahame

In Scotland, I mean.

Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 21 February 2024

Christine Grahame

The order that is before us will enter into the ambit of the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991. What was the view of the organisations concerned on the efficacy of the 1991 act, which already lists named breeds?

Criminal Justice Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 21 February 2024

Christine Grahame

But, because we are mirroring the law in England, I want to—