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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 2 August 2025
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Displaying 451 contributions

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Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 December 2022

Christine Grahame

Yes. Are we going to agree again?

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 December 2022

Christine Grahame

I dispute that, because, with a gun licence, somebody has to license the person’s expertise. They will have expertise with a gun, and the expertise that is required for management of the land. In the circumstances, there is enough in common—although there is not a direct similarity—to say that there should be a register, which would allow people to know and to feel secure.

Edward Mountain turned the issue on its head and used the word “victimised”. I would put it the other way round: the person who is being granted that exceptional licence as published knows that when they are out and about exercising the licence, they are doing so, and if any member of the public challenges them, they are able to say, “Well, have you checked the register? I’m licensed to do this.” That turns the situation on its head.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 December 2022

Christine Grahame

What I am asking for is quite plain stuff—it does not go down to the granular level. I am asking that we

“keep a register of licences granted, including the start and end dates of the licence and the name of the licence holder.”

That is it. The rest can be done by regulation. It does not get into the detail of the guns and so on, which Edward Mountain has just exemplified.

It is my understanding that the Scottish Animal Welfare Commission has suggested that we should have such a register. I see security in it for people who have been granted exceptions. The public will think, “Oh well, this is the law now,” and they will not necessarily appreciate that there are exceptions to exceptions whereby there could be an increase in the activity. Rather than see it as victimisation—to repeat myself—I would see it as something that would give security to the licence holder.

I have nothing further to add, convener. If you feel that it is appropriate, perhaps the minister could answer some of those points, as I just want explanations.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 December 2022

Christine Grahame

How, therefore, would that category be described in the licence? Would it refer to the farmers of X, Y and Z farms?

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 December 2022

Christine Grahame

Forgive me, convener, but I am going to have to ponder that for stage 3, as I am not quite satisfied with the explanation. It may be perfectly right, but I need to tease it out and read the detail.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 December 2022

Christine Grahame

That would be good. My understanding is that the licence goes to a person or category as the bill stands. Therefore, if the licence is breached, surely the licence holder is liable, notwithstanding the fact that another party is undertaking the physical control. At the end of the day, it is the licence holder who says, “I’m getting a licence, and I’m responsible for what happens under this licence of mine.”

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 December 2022

Christine Grahame

We would not know who those were. It could be anybody. It could be somebody who has nothing to do with the landowner.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 December 2022

Christine Grahame

I will leave it at that. I will have a big think about the matter again, because I am not sure.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 December 2022

Christine Grahame

So, there is a possibility of having a public register.

Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee

Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 7 December 2022

Christine Grahame

My goodness—what a long day the committee has had.

First, I will speak to my amendments 156 and 159, as they pretty well deal with the same thing. I will then move on to amendment 161. The amendments are probing amendments, and I am interested to hear what the minister has to say about them.

Amendments 156 and 159 seek to delete

“or to a category of persons”

and “or category of persons”. I do not quite understand those phrases—I am sure that the minister will clarify them for me. Rachael Hamilton and Jim Fairlie have referred to the licence holder, but a category of persons is not a licence holder—it is a category. I do not know what that means. Does it mean the farmers, the gamekeepers or the landowners? I do not know.

If I follow the line that it refers to gamekeepers, landowners or whatever, who will be liable for any breach at the end of the day? Who would be brought before the court for breaching the terms of the licence? There would be no name.

I understand that there might be several farms on a large piece of hillside in respect of which exceptions to exceptions require a licence over an area in which different persons own the land, but I do not see why a licence could not be granted to a particular person or persons. That might be the gamekeepers on three different estates, for example. At least there would then be a name in the frame.

I am not looking to persecute anybody; I just want to make things easier for enforcement and responsibility.