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That is okay.

Will you take an intervention, Mr Findlay?

In the interests of transparency, I note that amendments in this area are fraught with difficulties. I will not reiterate what I outlined earlier, but work is on-going with the Crown Office to look at how more victims—not all, but more of them—are informed.

I am relaxed about whether there is a further discussion for me to have with the Crown Office, one that I facilitate between the Crown Office and members, or something that we do collectively. I am always prepared to engage in more discussions. I am just being upfront and transparent: I think that amendments to legislation in this area are particularly tricky and difficult, and I am not in the terrain of making false promises.

There will always be an argument to be made with regard to how we use our resources now to impact on change. I do not demur from that, but there is also the argument that there is a very strong case to be made for having a victims and witnesses commissioner to uphold and undertake specific statutory functions—those arguments are not mutually exclusive. We should bear in mind that criminal justice agencies are independent from Scottish ministers—and rightly so. After all, we do not want undue ministerial interference in independent decision-making functions. I contend, therefore, that there is a gap that can be filled by a statutory victims and witnesses commissioner who will fulfil statutory functions that cannot be undertaken by anyone else.

I acknowledge the concerns about finance that Ms Dowey has raised consistently throughout stage 1 of the deliberations on the bill, but I contend that, although the recruitment of a victims and witnesses commissioner and the establishment of their office will, of course, incur a financial cost, making such an investment only for the post to be removed a few years later would not seem to be a wise use of resources.

My instinct is to seek consensus where I can, but, on some issues, you are either in or out. When it comes to the debate on the victims and witnesses commissioner, I remain fairly in.

I urge members to oppose all the amendments in the group.

Convener, I had finished my remarks and I did not appreciate that I had a right to reply, but I will take a brief moment to respond to Ms McNeill.

I understand the points about resources. We have to carefully consider every pound that is invested. I hope that members will be cognisant of that as we proceed through stages 2 and 3, because cost is much more of a germane factor in some of the other amendments that we will come on to.

The financial memorandum sets out that approximately £600,000 would be required to set up the commissioner’s office and that there would be approximately £600,000 in recurring costs, which is not an insubstantial amount of money. However, to put that into context, the victim-centred approach fund is £48 million and, over the past five years, the justice portfolio alone has invested £92 million in victim support and related matters. There are ways to reduce costs, although it would be up to the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body to do that by sharing services or premises.

Finally, I understand Ms McNeill’s point, but in order to best serve individuals we also need a robust system that is held to account.

I am very mindful of the discussions that I had with Mr Greene early on after my appointment to the position of Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs. At the time, he was a very active member of this committee. I say to him and colleagues that we will always do what we can to work together collaboratively. We have done our very best with the 50-odd amendments that Mr Greene lodged at the end of last week. I assure him that we are working at pace. We might not have all the answers today, but I hope that, as we proceed through stage 2, we can demonstrate a willingness to make further improvements to the bill and discuss other work that is in train and beyond.

On group 3, I agree with Mr Greene about the importance of ensuring that victims understand their rights and how the criminal justice system works. I strongly agree, in principle, with his amendment for a victims charter to be the responsibility of the victims and witnesses commissioner. However, I cannot support amendment 234 in its current form, as it would require the victims and witnesses commissioner to prepare and publish the victims charter and to lay it in the Parliament within 12 months of section 1 of the bill coming into force. The recruitment process for the commissioner cannot start until section 1 has come into force, and we anticipate the recruitment process taking between six and nine months. Assuming that a suitable candidate was appointed, the commissioner’s role might have been filled for only a couple of months prior to the deadline in the amendment, which would not allow the commissioner the time needed to develop and produce a charter.

My suggestion to Mr Greene is that he does not press amendment 234 and that we work together ahead of stage 3 on an amendment that provides that the charter should be produced within 12 months of the commissioner taking up their role.

Given that I agree with the principle of the commissioner being responsible for the charter, I urge Jamie Greene not to move amendment 236, which would place a duty on the Scottish ministers to prepare and publish the charter.

I suppose that the bottom line is that we run the risk of traumatising victims who do not wish to engage, notwithstanding that the entire system needs to become more proactive, focused on early engagement and outward reaching.

My fundamental point about the amendments is that they would best be considered as part of a wider piece of work. They focus on very specific points in the criminal justice system and therefore would potentially create lots of opt-ins or opt-outs. The proposed solutions certainly feel somewhat messy.

I will give way in a wee minute—I was interrupted mid-paragraph. I will make a wee bit more progress and then come back to Ms Clark.

The other important aspect is that we do not want the bill to duplicate existing legislative rights and current practices, and therefore to add to the complexity. That is the terrain that we are all in at the moment.

Victims who have chosen to be included in the Crown Office victim information and advice scheme will be proactively advised of the decisions in their case—notwithstanding that much more needs to be done to ensure that more people are informed of their rights and are aware of that scheme. The Crown Office is currently undertaking work to explore the possibility of extending proactive notification of no-action decisions to categories of victims and witnesses beyond those who are currently engaged with the victim information and advice scheme—although it advises that that work is on-going and complex and will carry resource implications. I am happy to engage with members and the Crown Office to get more information on the detail of that work.

I am happy to take Ms Clark’s questions.

I very much recognise the issue that Mr Findlay’s amendment is trying to address. Let me reassure him, and the committee, that the Scottish Government is taking forward work on the criminal-civil interface and I will, in a moment, put on record the breadth of that work. At this point in time, though, I have major concerns about the significant changes that the amendment would make to the running of our courts without any further consultation or engagement.

The effect of amendment 78 is that the courts would have to consider whether a related civil case should be allocated to the same sheriff or judge hearing the criminal case. The civil case might be a family case, such as a child contact case, where domestic abuse is often raised. I very much understand the logic behind the suggestion that the criminal and civil cases be dealt with by the same sheriff, but in practice, amendment 78 could make court programming increasingly complex. If the same sheriff were to be allocated to related criminal and civil proceedings, court programming would need to depend on that sheriff’s availability, which would, almost inevitably, take up more judicial and court time and lead to delays in the case being heard. For all the benefits that such integration might bring, the introduction of further delay is the last thing that families in that situation need.

In addition, the related proceedings could be at different court levels, which could make allocation to the same sheriff or judge problematic. For example, there might be a prosecution in the High Court and a child contact case in the sheriff court. However, as I said, I recognise the issue, which is why the Scottish Government has been progressing improvement work on how the civil and criminal courts interact, particularly in the context of domestic abuse.

We have held two workshops to date—one with justice agencies and another with voluntary sector bodies—and we are actively working on potential reforms. Mr Findlay asked about feedback from those workshops: we are currently identifying and scoping potential change ideas to take forward, which, in broad terms, fall into 10 areas—training, data sharing, court processes and structure, case management by the courts, judicial consideration, support and guidance for parties, child welfare reporters, child contact centres, implementation of the Children (Scotland) Act 2020 and research data and improvement work. I am conscious that integrated domestic abuse courts, or IDACs, were raised in the context of that work and I know from discussions with Scottish Women’s Aid that it would like to see them in Scotland—indeed, as Mr Findlay reiterated, the matter was raised during stage 1.

I can very much see merits in the approach, but the introduction of a major change in our courts would mean a lot of work, discussion and engagement, and the involvement of all stakeholders. We need to ensure that any proposed changes are in fact feasible and could be delivered without any significant adverse effects on court timetabling. As with any significant change of that nature, it would also be fundamental to ensure that both the resourcing of the immediate change and the wider implications had been considered. I respectfully say to the committee that, without any of that work having been carried out, a stage 2 amendment to the bill is not the time to make that change.

The Scottish Government carried out and published research in 2019 to look at the effectiveness of IDACs in other jurisdictions. We are building on that work. I am happy to tell the committee that the Scottish Government will carry out and publish further research on IDACs, which will examine models in other jurisdictions, including the pathfinder pilots in England and Wales. The research will be published in time to support the next Government and Parliament to assess whether legislative and non-legislative changes should be progressed in relation to IDACs.

I think that that is a complete misrepresentation of the position. The committee will know well enough that I am always minded to take opportunities where they arise, and indeed I sometimes incur the wrath of the committee for doing so. I do not want to repeat the debate that we have just had on the victim notification scheme, but I am always keen to make improvements, whether that is with VNS, parole or wherever we can.

With respect, I think that this is of a different magnitude. Although some of the practical reasons might be irritating to politicians who are always looking to practise the art of the possible, we have to give those reasons proper cognisance. I hope that I have demonstrated to the committee and to Mr Findlay that, since he raised the issue with me at stage 1, we have continued to pursue it with great seriousness. I am very interested in that policy area. However, in this instance, I would much rather come back with something at a future point, when all the irksome practicalities have been bottomed out. We are undertaking serious work on the matter.

On Mr Findlay’s request to have further discussions, the only thing that that will cost me is time. That is not a problem, but I want to put it on the record, as I did at stage 1, that this is a substantial area of work and I would not like to make promises that I cannot keep. There are other areas of work, such as in relation to anonymity for the families of deceased children that, with all sincerity, I have looked at including in the bill but that I am not proceeding with. It is not that we are unwilling; it is just that I will not make false promises. However, it is always good to talk.