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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 17 June 2025
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Displaying 350 contributions

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Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 28 January 2025

Roz McCall

You say that there is no evidence of framework legislation happening more frequently, but we are getting a lot of information that says that it is. On what basis are you making that judgment? To turn that around, what evidence is there to say that it is not happening more frequently?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 28 January 2025

Roz McCall

I was just interested to hear on what basis you came to that conclusion.

Some witnesses suggested that guidance on framework legislation should be put in place. We have highlighted that there is no definition, and you have come back on that. Should there be guidance from the legislature to the executive on when framework legislation may be appropriately introduced? Would any guidance that we put forward be a sort of halfway house, so to speak?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 28 January 2025

Roz McCall

You say that it would be an unhelpful process, but equally, your evidence just highlighted the fact that what started off as a non-framework bill ended up with additional secondary legislation-making powers by the end of the bill process. We do not have that definition and, because it is not there, the process is such that bills morph all the time and can become what could be seen as framework bills as they go through the process.

You say that putting guidance in place would not be helpful. I have a concern about that, which I will try to frame right way. If we took a view on whether legislation should be framework legislation, what would the Government’s view be on establishing principles to provide committees such as the DPLR Committee with clear means by which to assess and report on whether a bill is framework in nature, especially since they morph?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 21 January 2025

Roz McCall

That is very interesting.

Mr Jones, what is your opinion on what Mr Hedges has just said about Henry VIII powers and on the concern that Westminster could encroach on devolved legislation?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 21 January 2025

Roz McCall

That is excellent—thank you.

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 21 January 2025

Roz McCall

In the Finance and Public Administration Committee’s fantastic piece of work on the Circular Economy (Scotland) Bill, the committee stated that

“The increasing use of ‘framework’ bills that ... provide future Governments with enabling powers”

does not provide “the best estimates” of all likely costs and

“undermines Parliamentary scrutiny. It also risks the Parliament passing legislation which may in the end, once outcomes are fully understood,”

lead to significant cost increases. I accept that. The bottom line, which I want to highlight, is

“whether ... the outcomes the bill seeks to deliver ... outweigh any financial or affordability considerations.”

It is the outcomes that I really want to question.

Given the ambiguity around what a framework bill is or is not, and given the fact that we sometimes do not know that even at the inception of the bill, how important are the outcomes? Should they outweigh any financial situation? Should that be sacrosanct? Are we not putting enough emphasis on outcomes in the first place? Is it about saying that we just do not know what a framework bill is at the outset and that we should do more, especially from a financial position?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 21 January 2025

Roz McCall

We are trying to drill down into what would be an effective form of scrutinising those powers. Are we saying, “We just don’t like them, so let’s not do it”? In your opinion, can we find a sensible, suitable way of scrutinising those powers and halting their use when need be?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 21 January 2025

Roz McCall

Good morning, everybody. I would like to come back to you, Mr Gibson.

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 21 January 2025

Roz McCall

Hello again, everyone. I will come first to Mr Hedges with my first question about Henry VIII powers. Your committee’s submission made reference—which I am sure that you remember—to a suggestion to strengthen scrutiny on that,

“to require the Minister making them to consult with relevant stakeholders before making, or laying a draft of, a statutory instrument.”

That highlights to me the possibility that there could be other forms of scrutiny and that there should be a better way of scrutinising that Henry VIII power. What might be a required or appropriate scrutiny method for that form of legislation?

Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee

Framework Legislation and Henry VIII Powers

Meeting date: 21 January 2025

Roz McCall

Mr Carson, in your submission, you refer to some bills in relation to Henry VIII powers, but not many. Do you have anything to add?