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There is the concept of bootstrapping, where small business owners borrow money from banks or family members, or remortgage their house, rather than finding more sophisticated ways to raise funds. I get the impression that, post-Covid, banks have been less open to lending them money. Have FSB members picked up on that trend? A large number of small businesses have higher levels of debt than they had pre-Covid. Does that mean that we are in for a tough period with investment in SMEs and small businesses?

There is a taper element of universal credit that leads to a soft touchdown, so that people are incentivised to work and can keep more of their benefits for a period while they are earning. The finance secretary has always said to me that she is very keen to ensure that you do not embed cliff edges in any legislative or policy intervention. However, it strikes me that there is a cliff edge to the Scottish child payment. I have done a back-of-the-envelope calculation, but it seems to me that the taper gives people something like a five-times greater incentive to take on extra hours and work harder than is the case with the Scottish child payment, because people lose that at a certain level of income. Have you looked at any form of taper for the Scottish child payment that would remove the cliff edge that your Government says it is keen not to have as a central element of any public policy?

Finally, in relation to adult disability payment, you will be aware that the Scottish Fiscal Commission has pointed out to us that there is a significant gap between those coming off the benefit in Scotland versus the UK—2 per cent versus 16 per cent. What will your Government do to address that? Surely that is a red flag in relation to the sustainability of a benefit.

Good morning, cabinet secretary. With regard to your Government’s philosophical position on welfare spending, do you see it as a mark of success that the number of people who are in receipt of benefits goes up, or is the mark of success that the number of people in Scotland who are in receipt of benefits goes down over the long term?

You have said that, at the heart of the benefits system, there should be fairness and respect. What does it say to taxpayers about your Government’s approach to showing them fairness and respect that it seems unwilling to pursue £36 million of welfare expenditure that was either mispaid or claimed through fraud?

Would you expect that figure to fall over time, proportionally, as a percentage of the benefits bill?

The First Minister has set lifting children out of poverty as one of the central pillars of his Government. The graph in the SPICe paper from last July says that, after the Scottish child payment had been paid, 25 per cent of children were still below the poverty line and 75 per cent were above the poverty line. A significant number of children were above the poverty line prior to being in receipt of the Scottish child payment. If you are serious about eradicating child poverty, would it not be bolder if you were to address the needs of those who are effectively below the poverty line, rather than the needs of those who fall below the UK median income?

I am attending alongside Rachael Hamilton to speak in support of the petition lodged by Kenneth Moffatt, which reflects the real sense of public anger and concern at the culling of wild goats by Oxygen Conservation in February. The petition was signed by more than 13,000 concerned citizens, which is, I believe, one of the largest-ever groups to petition the Parliament and the committee.

The Langholm goats have grazed the hills peacefully and quietly for generations without any significant issues, and with careful and sensitive management. If anyone wants to know more about the history of the goat population in Scotland, I note that the committee has listed on its website a reference to the paper “The ‘Poor Man’s Mart’: history and archaeology of goats in Scotland”, which was authored by Catherine Smith and is useful for putting the issue into context.

In February, we saw those with outside commercial interests go too far in a rush after maximum financial return. They dramatically reduced the goat population for entirely the wrong reasons, and they did so without undertaking proper and meaningful community consultation. The petition that we see before us reflects the community’s response. Worse still, alternatives such as fencing around tree planting or working more closely with neighbouring landowners, including the Tarras valley nature reserve, were not properly explored.

Companies such as the natural capital organisation Oxygen Conservation need to better understand the need to work in partnership with communities in the Scottish Borders and Dumfriesshire rather than work against them, which is what has occurred in this instance. NatureScot and other bodies should not turn a blind eye when those commercial entities do not take cognisance of community concern. Sadly, in this case, I think that NatureScot has done so and that it is too remote and bureaucratic. I encourage the committee to explore that directly with NatureScot.

My constituents feel that, in the case of the hundreds of wild goats that graze the 30,000 acres between Newcastleton and Langholm, NatureScot came down on the side of big commercial and corporate interests rather than serving the local people, who care deeply about their local landscapes and their ecosystem. That reflects the fact that the present processes fail to recognise or understand the strength of local feeling. They fail to recognise and understand how important it is to the local community that the goats are free to roam the Langholm hills. Therefore, anything that the committee can do to address that imbalance must be explored.

The petition makes a strong case for more robust protection measures and processes for locally important species, such as the wild goats of Langholm moor. As Rachael Hamilton said, without some form of designated protection, it is clear that NatureScot and other bodies will not intervene in such cases. In future, important local heritage and biodiversity could be lost. I therefore ask the committee to urge the Scottish Government to grant protected status to this primitive goat species—or, as the goats are described by the popular local newspaper, the Eskdale & Liddesdale Advertiser, “our feral friends”.

Thank you, convener—life expectancy is something that I am now worried about.

Good morning, gentlemen. In order to balance its budget, the Scottish Government is setting significant store in looking at the Government and public sector workforce. In your submission, you note that

“more detail on size and costs of the workforce ... is useful”

and

“will aid scrutiny”

but

“an approach focused purely on controlling workforce numbers and pay costs will not address capacity issues and is unlikely to be sufficient to put public finances on an even keel”.

Could you elaborate on that and say what more should therefore be done both in relation to the workforce and elsewhere to get the public finances on an even keel?

Good morning, Mr Moxham. I want to discuss how Scottish trade unions enter into discussions with the Scottish Government on pay negotiations. You will be aware that the Government has set a public sector pay target of 9 per cent over the coming—