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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 16 September 2025
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Displaying 934 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Scottish Government and Scottish Fiscal Commission (Publications)

Meeting date: 2 September 2025

Craig Hoy

This question is more about the costs between now and the end of the decade. You have set public pay policy at 9 per cent over the next three years. In the first two years, the figure has exceeded 7.4 per cent in some areas. Obviously, you will not be in post, but, thinking beyond the election, how rigid will the Government be in the remainder of the public sector pay negotiations? Are you now saying that, if the level is presently running at 7.4 per cent, then 1.6 per cent is the limit, or are you willing to breach your own public sector pay policy?

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Scottish Government and Scottish Fiscal Commission (Publications)

Meeting date: 2 September 2025

Craig Hoy

You have achieved £300 million of savings, and you are now proposing a figure of £2 billion. I want to look at some of the risks that your civil servants have identified. The document that I have says:

“There is a risk that by focussing workforce reductions on corporate functions we reduce capacity to develop and implement the changes required within functions to deliver savings”.

Effectively, that means that if you get rid of those people, you potentially get rid of the capacity to make the efficiency savings that you desire to make.

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Scottish Government and Scottish Fiscal Commission (Publications)

Meeting date: 2 September 2025

Craig Hoy

As anybody who has run a business will realise, however, the first 5 per cent of savings is the easiest to achieve; it gets tougher as you cut in.

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Scottish Government and Scottish Fiscal Commission (Publications)

Meeting date: 2 September 2025

Craig Hoy

Good morning, cabinet secretary. The convener has identified a number of the very real risks that run through the fiscal delivery plan. However, obviously, you are setting significant store on making savings of £2 billion—£1 billion through the public service reform targets that were set out by Ivan McKee on 19 June. When he made his statement to the Parliament, he said that his plan was “rooted in realism”, but

“not in a headline-grabbing way that simply throws out random targets”.—[Official Report, 19 June 2025; c57.]

You will be aware that we have received, through a freedom of information request, a significant body of paperwork relating to the preparations for that announcement. One key element that stands out is that there were significant concerns among both the civil servants and your Cabinet colleagues about the ability to achieve that £1 billion. I draw your attention to paragraph 17 on page 3 of a document that we received, which was dated 22 May, from the directorate for public service reform. It says:

“We have set out ... that there is not a specific breakdown of the £1 billion target and there is an element of risk in this approach.”

Was that “rooted in realism” or simply written on the back of a fag packet?

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Scottish Government and Scottish Fiscal Commission (Publications)

Meeting date: 2 September 2025

Craig Hoy

Another risk involves devolved social security. Professor Ulph, when you were previously before the committee, you put to us quite interesting and alarming statistics about the refusal rates for adult disability payment being 16 per cent in England and 2 per cent in Scotland. When we put those numbers to the Scottish Government, it said that we were comparing apples and pears and that the difference was something to do with the fact that the benefit was recently devolved. Have you been able to interrogate that data further to show whether it results from a policy approach or the recent devolution of benefits?

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Scottish Government and Scottish Fiscal Commission (Publications)

Meeting date: 2 September 2025

Craig Hoy

I presume that the risk is that, if the Government does not meet its 0.5 per cent target, this is all compounding through the system, eventually, because there will be a larger civil service than the Government projected and potentially higher pay than it had included in its pay policy. That is the risk, is it not?

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Scottish Government and Scottish Fiscal Commission (Publications)

Meeting date: 2 September 2025

Craig Hoy

Would it not be better, logically, to announce the £1 billion figure after you have had all those discussions and identified where the savings are to be made? To return to the initial point, the “headline-grabbing” announcement is not “rooted in realism”, is it?

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Scottish Government and Scottish Fiscal Commission (Publications)

Meeting date: 2 September 2025

Craig Hoy

Fine. I will move on from the subject in a couple of seconds, but first I note that one bullet point in the document—unfortunately, the Government’s commitment to transparency is such that it has been redacted in part—highlights to the minister that

“As you will be aware from your bilateral meetings, a number of Cabinet Secretaries have raised considerable concerns”.

What were those “considerable concerns” about announcing £1 billion in public sector efficiency savings?

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Scottish Government and Scottish Fiscal Commission (Publications)

Meeting date: 2 September 2025

Craig Hoy

I was going to ask about that.

Finance and Public Administration Committee [Draft]

Scottish Government and Scottish Fiscal Commission (Publications)

Meeting date: 2 September 2025

Craig Hoy

That contingency should be built into the spending review. The Scottish Government should be aware that it is a potential real risk to its own financial settlement.