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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 19 June 2025
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Displaying 862 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2022”

Meeting date: 4 May 2023

Craig Hoy

That is a long-term sustainability issue. In relation to the shorter term, the leaked draft minutes of a meeting of NHS board chiefs in September last year identified a potential £1 billion black hole in the finances of the NHS in Scotland. The minutes of that meeting of NHS bosses stated that they had almost been given the green light to think the unthinkable about the foundations of the NHS in Scotland, with the wealthy potentially paying for their treatment in a two-tier NHS. Is that the kind of discussion that is taking place in NHS Scotland?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2022”

Meeting date: 4 May 2023

Craig Hoy

We know, from recently released data, that there has been a 73 per cent increase in the number of Scots electing to go private for some treatments. What would you, as NHS Scotland chief executive, advise me to do if I was 80 and in pain, immobile and suffering from social isolation because I required a hip replacement and I had the means to pay for it?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2022”

Meeting date: 4 May 2023

Craig Hoy

That is fine. We have talked about financial sustainability in the NHS, and you have identified reform and innovation as being critical to the long-term sustainability of the NHS in Scotland. Clearly, there was the meeting at which there was blue-sky thinking. At some point, we need to engage the public on what healthcare will look like in Scotland over the next five, 10, 15, 25 and 50 years and the timetable for that. How do you intend to engage with the nation and have that conversation about our national health service?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2022”

Meeting date: 4 May 2023

Craig Hoy

Okay.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2022”

Meeting date: 4 May 2023

Craig Hoy

The Audit Scotland report identifies that the creation of the national care service requires

“a significant unknown financial commitment to be met from the Scottish Government’s health and social care budget.”

As you are aware, ministers have paused stage 1 of the National Care Service (Scotland) Bill. Does that have any financial implications, in this year or in future years, for the health and social care budget in Scotland overall?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2022”

Meeting date: 4 May 2023

Craig Hoy

The SFC estimates that projected spending on health in Scotland will rise from a third of all spend to 50 per cent within 50 years. Do you recognise that figure? What conversations are you having with ministers about the model of healthcare in Scotland, given that projected shift in spending?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of Ferguson Marine Port Glasgow (Holdings) Limited”

Meeting date: 27 April 2023

Craig Hoy

When they were asked about what has gone wrong and the shortcomings and misgivings, the Scottish Government and the former First Minister said that we should leave all that to one side because, ultimately, they have saved the yard and the jobs there. In light of what you have said, is it premature to say that the yard has a safe, long-term future?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of Ferguson Marine Port Glasgow (Holdings) Limited”

Meeting date: 27 April 2023

Craig Hoy

When we visited the yard, some of the workers who had been there from the get-go said that, at various stages, they could liken the situation to a gravy train running through the middle of the yard, because the people who were doing the work were not necessarily being rewarded but, at various points, people in senior management certainly were. That gave us some cause for concern. Obviously, it appears that the issue of pay is now being addressed satisfactorily. Are there any other areas, such as expenses or the use of contractors or third-party agencies, that could give you cause for concern in the future or have you adequately looked into all other areas of potential expenditure?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of Ferguson Marine Port Glasgow (Holdings) Limited”

Meeting date: 27 April 2023

Craig Hoy

Mr Coffey asked about the bonus payments. Paragraph 26 of the report confirms that the

“Framework Agreement includes an overall framework for pay”

but that that

“was not formally agreed until March 2022”,

which was obviously

“after bonus payments were approved.”

Given that FMPG came into public ownership in November 2019, why do you think that it took so long to establish that vital framework for pay?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2021/22 audit of Ferguson Marine Port Glasgow (Holdings) Limited”

Meeting date: 27 April 2023

Craig Hoy

Mr Boyle, you have mentioned that the language was somewhat opaque around the issue of the pay policy. You said that pay should be

“broadly consistent with the provisions of”

Scottish Government

“pay policy”,

and that

“Any significant deviations will require further approval.”

In February 2023, the Scottish Government provided clarification on those requirements. Can you provide further detail on what those clarifications were, and whether you are confident with the steps that the Scottish Government has subsequently taken?