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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 3 August 2025
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Displaying 854 contributions

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Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Tess White

Okay. This is my final question.

In your view, to what extent does the Scottish Government’s interpretation of the terms “sex”, “gender” and “woman” make it difficult for public authorities to meet their responsibilities under the PSED? I know that Jennifer Laughland said that the Supreme Court judgment on the For Women Scotland case might provide clarity. Are you waiting until that comes before you can provide extra clarity and guidance?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Tess White

Thank you.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Tess White

When we conducted our consultation exercise, we got a huge amount of input. In the previous evidence session, I said that 80 per cent of the respondents said that the PSED was not being implemented, and they gave the committee a lot of information on why they thought that. Before the cake is cooked, will you share with us the ingredients that are going into it?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Tess White

It might be a request, then. Before you put water through the pipe, you need to check the pipe. Minister, if the committee has an important role in your work, my request is that you consider providing any guidance to the committee first. I will leave that request with you to take away.

Last week, Vic Valentine, who was representing Scottish Trans, said:

“we are always clear that our advice and guidance is not legal advice ... We would never say that we were giving legal advice to organisations ... We do not provide legal advice.”—[Official Report, Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee, 11 March 2025; c 56.]

That was said last week and it is included in the feedback in the committee’s papers. However, the following day, ahead of the debate on single-sex spaces in the public sector, Scottish Trans sent MSPs a briefing that said on at least two occasions that it would be unlawful not to allow trans people to access single-sex spaces in certain situations, which legal experts have refuted.

On one day, in front of the committee, Scottish Trans said one thing, but the next day, it issued a briefing that basically said the opposite. Minister, do you believe that it is appropriate for activist organisations to offer guidance that leaves public sector bodies vulnerable to costly legal challenges? Will the Scottish Government, as a funder of such organisations, distance itself from such guidance?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Tess White

Thank you. I will probably write to you after the meeting.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Tess White

Finally, I have noted that you have said that you want to provide leadership on the PSED and that you want to put your money where your mouth is, yet 80 per cent of respondents to the committee’s call for evidence said that public bodies do not understand and have not implemented the PSED properly. So, there is an issue with public bodies. During the previous evidence session, the EHRC said that there was an issue with the education sector and we have highlighted an issue with hospitals. I have also talked about big issues with Police Scotland.

In relation to the lack of implementation of the PSED, your leadership and putting your money where your mouth is, should you and/or the Scottish Government not suspend the pay rises of the leadership of those public sector bodies that are allegedly in breach of their duties? As a head of HR, if there were a specific issue in a part of an organisation, I could not take money off people, but I could and would suspend pay rises. If you have concerns and you are providing leadership, would it not be a practical thing to say, “Hang on a minute, let’s just suspend pay increases and review the implementation of PSED?”

12:45  

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Tess White

What is your view on whether the Scottish Government should provide guidance on the Equality Act 2010 in addition to the EHRC?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Tess White

To follow up on that, you said that the numbers will be small. I will take women in hospital as an example, which is when they are their most vulnerable.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Tess White

The NHS Tayside single-sex accommodation policy allows trans-identified males to be placed on women’s wards, which effectively creates mixed-sex provision. That policy is based on the patient’s presentation—the way that they dress, their name and the pronouns that they currently use. You say that the Scottish Government is providing leadership on the PSED, which is good. Does the Scottish Government support the principle of allocating people to hospital wards based on their gender identity, or does it believe that wards should be single sex?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Public Sector Equality Duty

Meeting date: 18 March 2025

Tess White

So the data is important.