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It is helpful to draw out those broader examples that might not sit within PSED reporting. Perhaps that is also something for us to think about—how we talk about the fostering good relations element of PSED.

There are some challenges, and we heard from the EHRC this morning that the police, for instance, have a key role in supporting the fostering of good relations in different ways. Do those issues form part of your conversations with agencies such as the police? What is the Scottish Government’s role in furthering this need—the requirement to foster good relations—especially with an organisation such as the police that has been identified as being institutionally racist? How can we expect different communities to trust that type of organisation to foster good relations? How do we unpick that knotty issue? I realise that that is a small question with big consequences and implications.

If there are particular groups that are having difficulties realising their equalities rights and human rights, is PSED the right tool to ensure that we, as the public sector generally, take those responsibilities and duties seriously, instead of saying, “Yeah, it’s difficult, so we’re just not going to bother.”? That is not done out of malice, but we quite often hear from people with lived experience of discrimination and from organisations that support different communities that some public authorities think, “It’s too hard, so we’re just not going to touch it.”

Do you hear questions being asked about that? Are the Scottish Government or other public agencies starting to think about it as we move towards reforming the PSED? Are people more alive to it and trying to get to grips with what it means? You are right that there is nervousness or reticence because they do not know what the duty is, what it looks like or what it means practically in day-to-day operations. Are those conversations happening in relation to reform?

That is really helpful, but quite a lot of questions arise from your comments, Bill. From what you have said, the inference might be that fostering good relations is something that happens, maybe not on a widespread basis but in a much more integrated way, south of the border. I am not sure that I see evidence of that. I am interested in your perspective, given that across the EHRC, you will share information, knowledge and practice around that. In England, is better attention paid to fostering good relations, given that there is a relationship that directly feeds into the human rights sphere there?

Others want to come in on the subject, too, so I will leave it there.

Another interesting issue came up in evidence last week. You talked about the action plan for Gypsy and Traveller communities. On the issue of racism, there was an expectation that health boards would put together and draw up anti-racism action plans. Is it your intention that all public bodies with responsibilities under the PSED should have an anti-racist action plan? If so, do you see that just being done in a phased way rather than requiring everybody to do it all at once? Can we speed things up a little bit?

I want to shift the conversation a little bit, minister. Within the public sector equality duty, there are three high-level needs: to pay due regard to eliminating discrimination, harassment and victimisation; to advance equality; and to foster good relations. In the past couple of weeks and this morning, we have heard that two of those needs—advancing equality and fostering good relations—are often overlooked, not given as much importance or not well enough understood. How would you describe the need to foster good relations to the people you are talking to, such as public bodies, public agencies or others with responsibilities under the PSED?

Okay. There are a couple of specific areas where inconsistencies have been highlighted to us. For example, we heard from BEMIS on the characteristic of race; although it covers colour, nationality and ethnic or national origin, the focus, usually, is on colour, not on ethnic origin or anything else. Has that example come up in your conversations with duty bearers? Has there been a recognition that the characteristic of race, for example, embodies much more than just that one part? After all, if that is true for the characteristic of race, it is probably true for other characteristics, too.

Thanks. I will leave it there for now.

Good morning. Thank you for joining us this morning and for your comments so far.

I will pick up on points about consistency and the overall impact. John, in your opening statement, you said that the point of the public sector equality duty is to identify areas where things are not maybe working as well as they might and to improve things so that groups and individuals with protected characteristics get the services, quality support and other things that they need.

We are very aware, from the evidence heard in the past couple of weeks and previously, that the PSED is maybe not delivering. That is the point of the reforms and there is an on-going discussion. Other members will pick up on reform specifically.

I am interested in the point about compliance. Bill Stevenson, you talked about top-level compliance and the variable responses below that. Last week, we heard that only 38 per cent of public authorities are meeting their legal requirement to report on occupational segregation, which means that 62 per cent are not. That does not sound like a high level of top-level compliance to me. Could you unpick that a bit?