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Good evening, Reem. Thank you very much for joining us—I appreciate your making the time to be with us.

I have two questions for you. I would like to explore your reflections on the report by Dunja Mijatovic, the Commissioner for Human Rights of the Council of Europe, in which she said,

“Both government officials and certain parliamentarians have actively contributed to an intolerant and stigmatising discourse.”

After that, she critiques the “culture wars” surrounding trans rights in Scotland. She also says in the report that

“trans persons in the UK face increasingly hostile and toxic political and public discourse.”

What your thoughts on her report in general, but also on those two points specifically, given the context in which we are discussing and debating this bill?

Thank you, Victor—that is really helpful. I could come back on a couple of points, but I know that the convener is keen to allow everybody to speak, so I will leave it there for now.

Thank you for that. I asked specifically about the impact of the culture wars, which trans people are bearing the brunt of and experiencing. You talked about freedom of expression. We have heard elsewhere in evidence to the committee that freedom exists up to a point where it does not impinge on the freedom of other people to exist. That is an important statement to make.

In the letter that you wrote last month, you spoke about the need to “listen”, and to take account of and evaluate the responses that have been received in the consultation and scrutiny processes that the Scottish Government and the committee have undertaken. In that letter, you said that,

“consultations”

were perhaps not

“sufficiently inclusive of other groups of women”

nor of organisations that represent them.

Given that we have heard from Scottish Women’s Aid; Rape Crisis Scotland and some of its network members; Engender and the Scottish Women’s Rights Centre, all of which support the reforms in the bill, I am interested in which other women’s organisations in Scotland, in the domestic Scottish setting, you have approached, or which have approached you. Where does your evidence come from for calling for the bill to have, as you called it, a comprehensive refresh?

Thank you. I will follow up quickly on two points. The reference to “culture wars” comes from the Commissioner for Human Rights of the Council of Europe; that is clearly her statement. Whether or not I agree with this—to be clear, I happen to agree with it—she says that,

“government officials and certain parliamentarians have actively contributed to an intolerant and stigmatising discourse”

within the context of “culture wars”. That is a direct quote from her report.

On the organisations that have been in touch with you, you wrote in your letter about listening clearly to organisations and survivors of violence. It is worth restating that the Scottish Women’s Rights Centre, Rape Crisis Scotland and Scottish Women’s Aid, which all directly support victims and survivors of gender-based violence, all support the reforms.

I appreciate that time is short so I will leave it there, convener.

Good morning to the witnesses. Thank you for joining us this morning, for your comments so far and for the materials that your organisations have provided. I want to follow up on some of Gordon MacDonald’s questions about the interaction between the economic outlook, the budget discussions that we will have tomorrow, the broader recovery that Professor Chadha and other witnesses have talked about and the consequences of Covid and Brexit.

Emma, I will come to you first. In the Fraser of Allander Institute’s “Scotland’s Budget Report 2022”, which was published this week, there is a very stark comment about social security, the consequences of some of the labour trends that we have been talking about and the increased reliance on social security. We know that social security spend is going up for significant policy and other reasons, but will you say a little more about how you see those things interacting and potentially leading to a more unstable or volatile economy in the future if people cannot get the social security support that they need even though the spend is increasing?

That is helpful.

I understand that. Professor Chadha, there is something interesting about not necessarily the social security system, but the labour market being a barrier by not enabling flexible work, part-time work or shorter working weeks, for example. What are your comments on that? We often talk about employment and the labour market separately from all the other support mechanisms, but I am trying to make the connections.

I have a last question on a different tack. Emma Congreve, I will come back to you for it.

The Fraser of Allander Institute published an article about the economic context for businesses in Scotland. Something that struck me in that was the difference between the impact of the broader economic situation on small and medium-sized enterprises and its impact on larger businesses. Turnover has fallen much more for SMEs than for larger businesses, relatively speaking.

What is your analysis of the long-term consequences for local and regional economies, of which SMEs are often the bedrock? How do we ensure that the disproportionate negative impact on SMEs does not continue to drag? If it carries on in the same direction, the situation of our local economies will just get worse and worse.

I suppose that the trends that we have seen in the past 10 to 12 years, since the financial crash, might come back in part to one of Gordon MacDonald’s other points, which was about the composition of labour market inactivity and a potential increased reliance on social security.

Do you have any comments or pointers for us around that focus on employment of people who have chosen to take themselves out of the employment market or have come out of it for health reasons, caring reasons and so on? Do we need to focus more on getting more people, such as single parents, back into employment?

I am not talking about the employability figures, because we know that the current employment figures are high. It is about the untapped potential of a group of economically inactive people who probably want to work but cannot for a whole range of other reasons, social security being one of them. How can we tease that apart and make a connection that is economically positive rather than an economic drain in the long term?

Emma, I do not know whether you have any more to say on that, but I will come to you first, and then Professor Chadha.

I thank you all for joining us and for your opening statements. Richy, I especially thank you for sharing your story with us. I am really sorry that you have been through that. Thank you for being here and helping us to understand why this is so important.

I have two questions, the first of which relates to the definition of conversion practices, which the committee has spoken about before. We made it clear in our report that we wanted to draw the definition of conversion practices as widely as possible. Issues around consent and intention to harm were part of that. The advisory group came up with a very clear definition of what conversion practices are. Why was it so important to draw that definition as widely as you did? How can we ensure that affirmative care—which we all recognise is important—is still okay?