Seòmar agus comataidhean

Good morning, minister. Thank you for being here. I will dig a little bit deeper into what you have said.

You talked about the legal and technical changes, including sorting out different procedures, and about the distinct IT systems of the criminal and civil courts. How many of those challenges were discussed or excavated at earlier stages, prior to the passage of the act and its achieving royal assent? It seems that some of those challenges should have been obvious. What work was done to understand the scope of the challenges and how they would be dealt with? Why is it that we are dealing with working groups only now?

That is helpful. My final point is that training and awareness raising cannot be a one-off event; it has to be an on-going process, and the training has to be embedded in the professional training that different professionals go through—that might even involve accreditation. We probably all need to bear in mind that it cannot be a one-off event. The act’s provisions might be implemented, but on-going training is really important.

I have heard quite clearly about the work that is going on, particularly work on the statutory guidance and the cross-agency work, which pulls people in from a range of organisations, agencies and beyond.

Maybe I missed this point, but, given the engagement around children’s rights—the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child is still a very new and live thing—what involvement has the Children and Young People’s Commissioner and her office had in the discussions? I want to hear reassurance that we are not reinventing the wheel. If good conversations are happening already, can we learn from them so that we do not replicate things, and so speed up implementation?

Good morning. Thank you for joining us today.

I want to pick up on some of the things that you have been talking about. Professor Kusters, in response to Tess White’s questions, you talked about resourcing and the disparity between the number of people who are BSL users and the number of people who speak Gaelic, and the funding that follows. Or than just hoping for more money, are there ways that the resources that are available could be used more effectively? I think that there are challenges. We have heard about education and the lack of understanding of the culture of BSL. How do we do better with the resources that we have?

Thanks, Stacey. That is helpful.

My final question is for Dr Adam and Professor Kusters. It seems that, as we have been talking this morning, questions have been arising for us about what goes into national and local plans and the watering down of the second national plan as compared to the first. It also seems to me that what is in the national plan does not necessarily get at the things that Dr Adam was talking about, such as training more BSL users to be counsellors, teachers, educators—a whole range of people in communities—and not just interpreters or translators. Are there ways that we can join things up a bit better and close that gap?

Although there are questions, clearly, about measurement and accountability with regard to the plans, there is something missing if all we are doing is measuring the numbers of interpreters. That does not change the numbers of people who have BSL as a first language who are teachers or nurses, or who are doing other things in society, not just doing things specifically as BSL users, interpreters and translators.

Thank you. There is something in that culture piece that I hope we can tease out, not only with Kate Forbes but in our report. Thank you for that.

I will ask Stacey Gourlay and Rachel Tardito that same question of resourcing. Do you see prioritisation being effective? How would you allocate resources differently?

Stacey, is there anything that you want to add to that?

Thank you. I will leave it there, convener.

Are you both confident that the plan can drive that culture change not only in how BSL users are seen and supported in society but in everything else—education, training and capacity building? Are you convinced that with the right engagement, we will have the right plans, or is there something else that we are missing in all of this?

Thank you for those helpful answers. Kevin, you talked about the deaf clubs. It came through strongly in our informal engagement sessions and our previous evidence that that is where people understand that being deaf is an identity that is part of our wider culture.

The acquisition of language is profoundly important to us all as individuals, but BSL is sometimes not understood as a legitimate first language with everything that comes with that, such as the cultural associations and attributes. I still do not know whether we have captured that in any of the national and local plans. They may say that we will support deaf clubs and so on, but there is something more about celebrating the culture of deaf people as human beings with a legitimate, a priori culture, if you like, that is not mediated through translation or interpretation into English, Gaelic or any other language. BSL is the language.

Is there a way of thinking about that that will mean that we can do better? I appreciate that that is probably quite a big conversation, but if you have any further comments, I will be interested to hear them.